michael
Well-known member
unplugged said:
Exactly. That's full of all my charging stuff anyway.
150 mile range
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Exactly. That's full of all my charging stuff anyway.
jstack6 said:
There won't be a Tesla for 35K anytime soon. They had a drawing released. And knowing their track record and schedule issues, they aren't going to have a $40K car until like 2018. If they have it then. I don't think people have followed how Tesla runs. they just believe the media hype. They release some sketch, they try and build it, hit some delays, and finally like 3 years later, it is finally announced as coming out.
They haven't started hyping the Model X yet and it's already 2014 in less than a month. And that's been talked about for a long time.
So don't count on a 200 mile Tesla Model for $35K till like 2017 or 2018. And who knows where things will be by then as there are fuel cell cars, hydrogen cars, other companies electric cars and so on.
jstack6 said:
Yeah but doesn't going downhill mean you need to go back uphill at some point?
I mean it's great you hit a benchmark that doesn't mean anything, but real tests are what matter.
I know I've seen like 200+ miles going downhill at one point, but I have to go back up hill to get home. And all those miles suddenly disappear. And not matter if I try different routes and roads, i still have to go back up a damn hill. If you're getting 500 miles, it probably means a pretty damn big hill.
unplugged
Well-known member
I don't think you may be aware that Tesla has largely lived up to the promises Elon Musk has made in regard to production. The most famous promise being a wager he made with Pulitzer Prize winning auto jounalist Dan Neil. Mr. Neil stated in 2009 he would bet Musk $1 million that the Model S would not be ready for the promised production date of 2012. (Dan bet $1,000, Elon bet $1 million.) Dan lost the bet and paid $1,000 to Doctors Without Borders. Elon paid his million also, despite winning the bet.pjam3 said:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077408_elon-musk-wins-his-2012-tesla-model-s-bet-dan-neil-pays-up
So don't be too quick to dismiss Tesla claims. This is not media hype.
portable
Member
http://insideevs.com/tesla-chief-designer-model-e-expected-to-make-worldwide-debut-at-2015-detroit-auto-show/
good reading!
good reading!
michael
Well-known member
I am afraid that even a 150 or 200 mile $35K car won't seduce many people away from their ICE addiction. The Tesla, as it stands today, is a boutique car....in most cases it's purchased by wealthy people in preference to a BMW, Audi, Land Rover, or other comparably priced high-end car. In fact it's a rich-man's bargain: They get more status driving a $110K Tesla than driving a $200K Ferrari. I fear that the rest of the country will manage to find rationalization to stick with the status-quo unless:
1. Those of us who already drive EV's show them how well the concept works out (I've already gotten one friend into a Volt, working on another...despite the fact that an FFE or Leaf would have met his needs better, he didn't have the guts to risk a pure BEV) (and this will take years), or
2. Gasoline becomes insanely expensive or unobtainable (gas lines) (if this happens, EV's will fly out the door at premium prices like hybrids did at one time)
I've talked to my friends, and it's so easy to find an excuse not to get an EV....the cost and hassle of installing a Level 2 charger is high on the list, together with a fear of high electric bills and being stranded. One woman with a 30 mile round trip daily commute and five (!!) other cars in the family rationalized the FFE was unusable because it lacks a locking glove compartment...how would she deal with valet parking???? But I show my friends the EVSE installation, how it take five seconds to plug in, and that I've traded a $300 gas bill for a $30 electric bill. That (slowly) makes them believers.
1. Those of us who already drive EV's show them how well the concept works out (I've already gotten one friend into a Volt, working on another...despite the fact that an FFE or Leaf would have met his needs better, he didn't have the guts to risk a pure BEV) (and this will take years), or
2. Gasoline becomes insanely expensive or unobtainable (gas lines) (if this happens, EV's will fly out the door at premium prices like hybrids did at one time)
I've talked to my friends, and it's so easy to find an excuse not to get an EV....the cost and hassle of installing a Level 2 charger is high on the list, together with a fear of high electric bills and being stranded. One woman with a 30 mile round trip daily commute and five (!!) other cars in the family rationalized the FFE was unusable because it lacks a locking glove compartment...how would she deal with valet parking???? But I show my friends the EVSE installation, how it take five seconds to plug in, and that I've traded a $300 gas bill for a $30 electric bill. That (slowly) makes them believers.
michael said:
I think the big issue at this point is most people need another gas powered car to do anything normal. Take the kids to Disney Land on a weekend means you can't use the EV. Go on a camping trip, you need a gas car. If you have to travel for work or go from office to office and so on or you're commute is 40+ miles per day and you can't charge at work or at home, you pretty much can't do errands or take a friend to the mall. I've had to tell people can't do it on a few occasions because my #1 concern with my EV is how far can I go and where is the closest charging station.
I get about an avg of 60-65 miles per charge and I live in a condo. I can't charge at home at all. And I'm not the only person like this. Something like 50 percent or more of the population can't buy these cars or they have to find charging stations if they live in condos or apartments that don't have charging stations or garages/parking lots with outlets.
So when you live in this reality every move is about where is the nearest charging station and which company do I have to pay today. EvGo, Blink, ChargePoint and so on. And none of them are free to join and I've found maybe 1 free charging station, the rest are either $1-2 per hour. So if it takes 4+ hours to charge, I'm at at least 4 bucks per day. EvGo was like $7.95 for a 60 day trial, so I have no clue how much it'll cost per month. And some charging stations are always broke or just stopped working and haven't worked in a month. Other stations are in parking lots that cost you $10 to park.
I have tried to convince some friends about the value of my EV, but the truth is, they make fun of me for always needing to find a charging station or my trips become more about where is the closest charging station. And then the jokes come with "hey we can't go to legoland or disney land' because your electric cord can't go that far. The sad reality is that's the truth. I can pretty much get up and go in my SUV and never worry about any of those things. In my EV, my life is more revolved around I can only go to the local markets and back. Even my local work office is like 20 miles away, so 40 miles a day isn't bad, but I can't charge at home, so it means I need to find a station along the way(there are none as I have to go out of my way to get to one) and it becomes a pain. Add kids to the mix and suddenly waiting around for 2+ hours to charge up is a nightmare. Especially if it's a station not near anything kids would want to do.
I think it'll remain a niche market until a car like the FFE gets 150 miles a charge. At that point I can do my weekend excursions, I can do many other things that I normally would do. When you can't do those normal things, it becomes a nice concept car, but you still need another car to do things you used to do all the time. AKA take a 4 hour road trip for a weekend getaway and so on.
The other issue is cost. I bought my Ford because I got the $10,500 rebate and they reduced the price. If they stay around the $40K price range, most people are going to choose somethign like the C-MAx or Ford Fusion Energi or Prius. It's far to expensive to be buying a car that only gets you 65 miles and has no room to even put groceries most of the time. Again, many people have kids, so you have car seats, and a stroller. When you have to buy some cheap umbrella stroller to replace your bigger stroller and you have to force yourself to buy less groceries, it's a problem. For me Whole Foods, Ralphs, Jimbos are all within a few miles of me so not a big deal. For others I know, it's a 15 mile drive to the grocery store.
If Tesla made a $35K model that looked cool and got around 200 miles it would put all these other manufacturers in the dust. But I doubt they will ever get to that point anytime soon. The supposed cheaper Model isn't even going to be a concept car at an auto show until like 2015. And going the path the other cars have gone, that means you won't see that under $50K model till 2017 or later.
I get quite the opposite response. The issue of range does come up, but for me, it isn't an issue. I knew very well what the range would be like.
And you're right, it is too bad when a charger is broken or in a $10 parking lot. It will take a long time for charging stations to become more plentiful and/or reliable where I live in SoCal. It is nice when it is available.
Anyway, I bought an EV because I really like the idea. When the FFE came out, that was my tipping point to buy. As range increases and prices drop, that tipping point will trigger for others as well. It is like anything that comes new to the market. I never thought I'd own a flat screen TV when I first saw one at $25,000.
davideos said:
I agree! People are usually really interested and don't have a problem that we go somewhere and maybe park a few blocks away so I can charge. It's free electricity or usually pretty cheap and we get some free exercise walking. Win win in my book. I would have to say that living in socal there is a good amount of charging places for the most part. As long as you stay away from downtown usually the chargers are not in pay lots. I have found that with just a little pre planning I really don't have any feeling of range anxiety. Plus worst case between having AAA+ and ford roadside I can always get a tow to a station if it was ever needed.
I could not be happier driving all electric and can say with certainty I would not want to ever own a ICE car again.Astrand1 said:davideos said:
I agree! People are usually really interested and don't have a problem that we go somewhere and maybe park a few blocks away so I can charge. It's free electricity or usually pretty cheap and we get some free exercise walking. Win win in my book. I would have to say that living in socal there is a good amount of charging places for the most part. As long as you stay away from downtown usually the chargers are not in pay lots. I have found that with just a little pre planning I really don't have any feeling of range anxiety. Plus worst case between having AAA+ and ford roadside I can always get a tow to a station if it was ever needed.
This theory only works if you don't do anything. Great if you go back and forth to work that's 5 miles away and the grocery store thats a few miles away, but do anything normal people do, it's nearly impossible. And I live in Southern California. SoCal is filled with many of us who don't stay home. Many people live active lifestyles. Aka "Surf in the morning and snowboard in the afternoon." But with my FFE, that ain't happening.
There is no possible way that I'd be able to drive out to Big Bear or Glamis. I couldn't take an excursion to wineries in Temecula or picking apples in Julian. I can't go to Disneyland in Anaheim. I can't go up to the beaches in OC. I can't drive to Santa Barbara. Hell, i can't even drive down to Coronado from where I live as I'd be worried that I wouldn't make it back home. I don't use my EV to go to/from the airports. I either take SNA or SAN (one is about 30 miles, the other 60 miles) so it's easier to not worry about getting to the airport on time. These are the real conversations I have. People ask these questions and while I love my car, the reality is most people I know are not going to be convinced that a car that usually gets me 60 miles and always needs to be charged is worth. And it sure wouldn't' be if it still cost $40K.
I mean the truth is in the plug in hybrid model, the Ford Fusion Enerigi plugin is sure not worth $10-15k more than the hybrid.
To me a lot of the BS conversations are just not real. Honestly if somebody never goes above 10 miles a day, the entire EV car concept is just BS because if it were about the environment, they'd ride a bike and not buy any car. I mean when I used to work up in the Bay Area, I rode my bike around 20 miles a day to/from work. I didn't even have a car. I rode my bike to BART, to CalTrain and so on to go on weekend excursions. And it was good exercise. If it came down to what's better for the environment, riding my bike to/from work is far better than buying any car. I'm no longer in that situation and I have two kids now, so a bike just won't cut it.
It's hard to convince anybody that dump gas powered cars if you can't do normal things in your EV like go to sea world or Disneyland or to the airport because they are to far away. And I live in Southern California. As far as the pay parking lots, they exist in places like La Jolla and UTC and I've found like 2 charging stations that are 'free.' One of those was the $10 parking lot. Cost me $11 the other day. But that place is close to a mall and when you have kids, you can walk two blocks over to the mall and they can go eat, play, and so on. Park at some apartment complex and you aren't going to be charging long.
It's early, but the problem is the big companies need to be interested. If they aren't that interested and it remains a $100K Tesla model kind of world, it' s not going to become anything more than a cool niche. I hope it gets better because I'd rather not drive a gas car. I love the FFE. I've also been looking into test driving the Tesla Model X. It's like an SUV and if it's as nice as the Model S and gets around 200 miles, I'll probably buy it. Will it be worth that much money? Not even close, but compared to anything else out there, it's just so much better.
Anybody that has kids can't rely on a car that gets you 60 miles at tops. Anybody that does anything like go on some weekend excursions, can't rely on the FFE.
The last point is that you can't convince people who have common sense. As bad as we can talk about gas powered cars, the FFE is rather useless when it comes to doing anything with your family. Like I said, disney land is like 75 miles from me. I wouldn't even be able to make it there. Is that a place I go to often? No, but i also have family and friends who visit and my kids want to go now and again, so it becomes one of those things where you can't go, ever. There are other places similar.
There are also kids events, kids friends, kids activities that require traveling to/from. Yeah if you sit at home and rarely go anywhere, it's perfect. But if you are active, you could be traveling 100 miles to take your child to some sporting event or dance recital or whatever. Does it happen often? Depends how involved your kid is and how involved you are with your kids life. If you're a deadbeat, who cares I guess. If you are rarely around for their games or rehearsals, then it won't matter. At this point, only the Tesla Model S can be in those conversations. Anybody else will find it interesting and think wow kind of cool, but then laugh you out of the building when you tell them it'll get you around 65 miles on a full charge.
Well just to be clear I drive 25 miles one way just to work. I put over 2000 miles on my FFE in the first month I had it. I get most of the time 80-90 miles on a charge. I've gone to long beach to visit friends, which is about 50 miles or so from me. I've gone to LAX a number of times to pick up or drop off friends/family. Sometimes I will charge if I get to airport early other times I don't. IMO the FFE is a capable car. Since the weather here in socal is generally good it really comes down to either terrain depending on where you drive mostly but to me the biggest factor is how you drive. I've been driving hybrids for years now so I have kinda got it down how to get more miles out of the batteries. I tend to leave 10-15 minutes earlier and drive 58-62 in the right lanes and hang with the trucks. You would be amazed how much more range you can get my just slowing down a bit and unless your driving 600 miles in a day going 60 really does not add very much time to the trip when your in town. Sure I would love to have a model S and be able to drive 75mph and not even worry but 100k vs my FFE at 23k after all the rebates for now I'm happy with my baby model S. Lol.
On a side note I'm really suprised that Disneyland has not put in level 2 chargers yet. You would think a corporation that large would have done that by now.
On a side note I'm really suprised that Disneyland has not put in level 2 chargers yet. You would think a corporation that large would have done that by now.
I rarely use the freeways in the FFE. I stay around 30-40 MPH and i get about 65 miles. I do have to go up and down inclines all the time and some small hills, but it's not Big Bear or anything. And as I stated, when you can't charge at home, the entire dynamic changes. Which would be the case for half the population who can't charge at home. So a 50 mile trip means you need to charge at your friends place and you would need to find some charging stations on the way back home, and being I'm only seeing 65 mile ranges while going 35 MPH, I would barely make it to the friends house. And then I'd have to hope they had a Level 2 charging station or a 240V outlet close to where my car would be able to plug it in. Many of my friends don't have washer or dryers in their condos or apartments. So I would be SOL.
The dynamic is that for half the population, a FFE is not a very reliable car to be your only car at this point. And the other reality is you can't sit around for 4 hours charging your car if you have kids with you. That just won't work. It only works if there is some cool place for them to hang out and play. I get bored waiting around 4 hours at some parking lot. But I can read a book, get some work done on my tablet. A 3 year old isn't going to sit in a car or walk around a parking lot for 4 hours.
So a lot of the scenarios just don't work for your avg consumer. You have a lot of assumptions.
1> You can charge at your friends house. (50 miles one way and even with 80-90 miles means you won't make it back home).
-- Over half my friends don't live in or own a home. They live in apartments and condos where there isn't any place to plug in.
2> Going 60-65MPH is nice, but I go 30-35MPH in San Diego County and I'm only seeing a 65 mile range. How many people beside you are getting 90 mile ranges on a consistent basis using freeways?
3> YOu can't do normal things with family, friends and kids. AKA go to disneyland, go to Santa Monica or Hollywood(if you live in San diego), go to Big Bear and so on. And for a lot of people those can be once a month trips or more.
I love my FFE, but half of what i do is not possible in that car. So it's hard to imagine most people would ever buy the theory that half their life has to change because they now have a EV that only can get you so far.
The dynamic is that for half the population, a FFE is not a very reliable car to be your only car at this point. And the other reality is you can't sit around for 4 hours charging your car if you have kids with you. That just won't work. It only works if there is some cool place for them to hang out and play. I get bored waiting around 4 hours at some parking lot. But I can read a book, get some work done on my tablet. A 3 year old isn't going to sit in a car or walk around a parking lot for 4 hours.
So a lot of the scenarios just don't work for your avg consumer. You have a lot of assumptions.
1> You can charge at your friends house. (50 miles one way and even with 80-90 miles means you won't make it back home).
-- Over half my friends don't live in or own a home. They live in apartments and condos where there isn't any place to plug in.
2> Going 60-65MPH is nice, but I go 30-35MPH in San Diego County and I'm only seeing a 65 mile range. How many people beside you are getting 90 mile ranges on a consistent basis using freeways?
3> YOu can't do normal things with family, friends and kids. AKA go to disneyland, go to Santa Monica or Hollywood(if you live in San diego), go to Big Bear and so on. And for a lot of people those can be once a month trips or more.
I love my FFE, but half of what i do is not possible in that car. So it's hard to imagine most people would ever buy the theory that half their life has to change because they now have a EV that only can get you so far.
WattsUp
Well-known member
Whoa... your range seems very low. If I drove like that all that time, I'd probably get 80-90 miles.pjam3 said:
On average, I get more like 70, with about half freeway (where I normally keep it 60-65 mph). I've recently did an all-freeway trip of about 70 miles (doing more like 55-60 to be conservative) from San Jose, CA to Carmel, CA. I've done another similar 60-mile trip several times (again, about ther same freeway speeds) and usually arrive with 10-20 miles of range remaining.
What is your average Wh/mi? Do you use the climate constantly? Are your tires inflated properly? 38 psi all around (higher than most cars).
michael
Well-known member
I agree that the FFE (as well as Leaf, FIT EV, Spark EV, RAV4 EV, etc) wont do as the sole car for most people....most people need access to a gas-burner some of the time. Even the vaunted Tesla can't do everything...pretty much the Volt is the only EV that can be the ONLY car.
But for many people, the FFE and the other pure EV's work great as the primary car. If you are a multi-car family, or you just have more than one car, it works great. I'm in a family of three, we have the FFE plus two ICE cars. When the lease on the ICE runs out, I'll replace it with a Volt or possibly BMW I3. The FFE will still be the heavy lifter, running 2000 miles a month while the ICE cars will be for neighborhood or long distance use. Ultimately I'd like to have two pure EVs and a Volt. And I can do that for less than the cost of a single well-equipped Tesla.
But for many people, the FFE and the other pure EV's work great as the primary car. If you are a multi-car family, or you just have more than one car, it works great. I'm in a family of three, we have the FFE plus two ICE cars. When the lease on the ICE runs out, I'll replace it with a Volt or possibly BMW I3. The FFE will still be the heavy lifter, running 2000 miles a month while the ICE cars will be for neighborhood or long distance use. Ultimately I'd like to have two pure EVs and a Volt. And I can do that for less than the cost of a single well-equipped Tesla.
WattsUp said:
The other day I went about 4 miles total round trip and got 1.7kWh and 399 Wh/mi.
I've had the car for about a month now so I haven't checked the tires, the app says they are good, but haven't checked the tire pressure.
I never use any kind of heater in my car. I grew up in the Northeast, so 50 degree temperatures are considered cold here, but I'm still wearing shorts and t-shirts. But the truth is, I went to the market the other day, and a 4 mile trip burned 10 miles of energy. There was a bit of an incline, but on the way there I just glided down the hill and it never regened anything. Remained at 0. On the way back up it goes down by like -5 miles.
That's kind of how it's been. When I bought the car, the dealership was like 30+ miles from my house and mostly freeway. I left the dealership with like 50 or something, got home with like 10 or 11 miles. At that point I've tried to avoid freeways .
Some days are annoying as I'll leave with 40 miles, stop off at a mall, charge it for like an hour and a half and it'll be over 50 miles, but then get home and I'm back at like 40 miles. So some days it's just not worth it at all to spend that much time charging and return home with the same amount I left with.
WattsUp
Well-known member
Hmm, seems like something might be wrong. That's a very high Wh/mi if you're only driving 30-40 mph.pjam3 said:
Is your driving style "zippy" or "zen"? Do you floor it everywhere, or do you drive conservatively?
Fwiw, mine came from the dealer with the wrong pressure, 32 psi. The correct pressure is 38 psi. The app or car never complained (but I think the pressure has to get really low before the alarm is triggered).pjam3 said:
However, I don't think 6 psi would make up the difference you're seeing, but then again your tires could be really low for whatever reason. So, you should check your pressure to rule it out as a cause of poor efficiency.
So you just leave the climate off?pjam3 said:
Hmm, what do you mean by "glided"? You're not driving down hills in Neutral are you? There is no regen in Neutral. The car must be in D or L for regen to engage, even when braking. Despite its name, "regenerative braking" is a function of the motor, not the brakes. Regularly driving the FFE in Neutral (that is, when stopping or going down hill) is simply self-defeating. The car will never have a chance to regen, which is large factor in its efficiency.pjam3 said:
In any case, if the little "spinner" thing never appears over the battery display in the car, even when in D or L, then something is definitely wrong with your FFE. If regen is not working in your car for some reason, or if you're not giving it a chance to work, that could very likely be the cause of your poor range.
Btw, did you receive any recall notices from Ford about your FFE? If so, did you have them performed yet?
For comparitive purposes, when I drive 75-80mph on the freeway for 8-9 miles followed by 60mph up a slight grade for another 4-5miles, my wh/mile is about 350. I'll have to check the next time I commute home from work. Today, I did the same basic distance and grade, but driving surface streets. Light accelleration and long even braking and never exceeding 45mph, my wh/mile was 250. It was averaging 200wh/mile before hitting the uphill grade. No climate control and headlights on.
I can see you getting very little re-gen if the hills are steep and you have to brake hard going down. And like WattsUp said, if you are in Neutral while braking, there is no regen. I've done this from time to time, but I always shift back into D or L while braking.
Anyway, hope there is something you can find that can be fixed. You should definitely be getting better range.
I can see you getting very little re-gen if the hills are steep and you have to brake hard going down. And like WattsUp said, if you are in Neutral while braking, there is no regen. I've done this from time to time, but I always shift back into D or L while braking.
Anyway, hope there is something you can find that can be fixed. You should definitely be getting better range.
I have the climate controls turned off or on Lo with no fans and so on. I don't need them. I don't drive in N, I tried L a few times, but it didn't really do anything for me, so I"m always in D. When I glide down the hill, it's in D and since it's a nice sized hill, I can go from 0 to like 40 MPH without ever touching the pedal. It gets me almost to the market some days if there are no other cars on the road.
The little Regen circle does spin sometimes and tells me 99 percent or 100 percent or 80 percent and so on. One time going down another hill, I got something like +100 miles, but I had to come back up and it went to 0. As far as my driving style, I'm about 3/4 over near Zen according to the myFord.
There are some hills and inclines. It's not mountains or anything, and honestly, there are many times where after I start the car up and get out to the road and it's already -2. And I try not to even touch the gas pedal at that point.
Who knows. Most of you seem to charge it overnight. Maybe that takes it's toll. I've only fully charged my car once since I've had it as I can't charge it at home. So it's not sitting on a charger for 8 hours at night. Other than that, I'm not really doing anything odd.
The little Regen circle does spin sometimes and tells me 99 percent or 100 percent or 80 percent and so on. One time going down another hill, I got something like +100 miles, but I had to come back up and it went to 0. As far as my driving style, I'm about 3/4 over near Zen according to the myFord.
There are some hills and inclines. It's not mountains or anything, and honestly, there are many times where after I start the car up and get out to the road and it's already -2. And I try not to even touch the gas pedal at that point.
Who knows. Most of you seem to charge it overnight. Maybe that takes it's toll. I've only fully charged my car once since I've had it as I can't charge it at home. So it's not sitting on a charger for 8 hours at night. Other than that, I'm not really doing anything odd.
WattsUp
Well-known member
No, that "big" spinner with the percent display sounds like the Brake Coach. It appears on the left-hand dash temporarily every time you come to a stop, correct? That's the Brake Coach.pjam3 said:
Do you see the little spinner that appears over the battery gauge (the battery also "glows" a little) whenever you are braking or driving without accelerating (e.g., "coasting")? That indicates when regen is actually occurring.