Would you buy another BEV?

[Club Car]

I hope to replace my 2018 FFE before the warranty expires. I bought mine used and relatively inexpensively before used car prices went nuts.

I've been really happy with the car and will be looking to buy another BEV. I really like the fact that it looks like most other ICE econoboxes and not some goofy futuristic abnormality.

I am leaning toward the Hyundai Kona Electric. I like the idea of greater range and higher horsepower, top speed.

Anyone else looking at an upgrade within the next couple of years?

 

[scottt]

Trouble is, any BEV at this point is worthless if the battery fails after 8 years (battery warranty expires). It's way too expensive to replace the battery. I'd keep my FFE if battery replacements were somewhere in the realm of reasonable. Since I got my FFE new for $15,389.99 brand new from the factory, I can't see spending $40k plus for a new BEV that I can't keep past 8 years.

 

[PlainTom]

Answer to the OP's question: yes, we would buy another. In fact the 2017 FFE we bought last fall was our third, having left ICE cars behind for good.

[And IMHO, no car that still gets the job done in reasonable fashion is worthless.]

 

[scottt]

Answer to the OP's question: yes, we would buy another. In fact the 2017 FFE we bought last fall was our third, having left ICE cars behind for good.

[And IMHO, no car that still gets the job done in reasonable fashion is worthless.]

I edited my post, I forgot the "if the battery fails" part.

 

[Pele]

I'm not sure if I will by buying another Battery Electric Vehicle.

The Focus has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding legislation and marketing... On paper, the FFE made good sense. My commute is 25 miles one way, at highway speeds, with no charging at work, the 115 mile range as advertised SHOULD work just fine even with a 20-30% reduction (70-80 miles) in the winter and with stickier tires.

While I was very excited to have it the first year I got it when I took delivery in April of 2022, the following winter when I found the range had dropped to FIFTY miles with the heat running, I was less than enthusiastic. Ditching the heat to extend range is not only uncomfortable, but unsafe as the windows fog up.

It's technically not the vehicle's fault, but I believe I was mislead with skewed and missing data and the data is misleading because of poorly worded legislation...

By all accounts, this is a Compliance Vehicle.
Why do Compliance Vehicles even exist?
Ford didn't even try to design a powertrain or battery system. They outsourced the motor to Magna International (A Canadian based conglomerate) and the batteries are made by LG-Chem (South Korea).
It's my understanding that legislation states that manufacturers need to sell Zero-Emissions Vehicles to do business within certain states (California and states that have adopted California's requirements.)

This legislation, again to my understanding, does not specify that it needs to be sold in any number or make up a certain percentage of the manufacturer's volume of sales. This results in a limited production run of cars, only being sold in dense metropolitan areas, and with minimal design effort and zero marketing or dealership support. While Ford was making money hand over fist on the high volume selling and high profit margin trucks and SUVs, these economy cars sat in back lots, unwanted.

But Ford gets to say, "Meh... We tried." And to the letter of the law, they did indeed comply.

Chevrolet has been doing the same with the Bolt (EV) and Spark models. Honda did the same with the Fit electric model. Mazda has done it with the MX-30. All low effort "Attempts" just to tick a box and get around the law.

I believe this legislation needs to be changed to favor people getting into smaller, more efficient vehicles, as legacy auto has had plenty of time resting on their laurels, suckling the high profit teat of SUVs and Trucks.

Because this is a Compliance vehicle, corners were cut. They used a basic economy car shell, but didn't consider adding a little R&D to improve range and marketability. (As they never intended to sell in high volume.) Replacing the steel doors, hood, fenders, and tailgate with aluminum components would have dropped weight. This increases range and practicality of the vehicle, making it more appealing to consumers. It also has a very power hungry resistive heater rather than a more efficient heat pump. This method of heating the cabin results in a VERY poor winter range.

Being that "range anxiety" is one of the common concerns with people that are researching EVs, I believe every effort to achieve maximum range should be made.

Which brings me to deceptive/misleading marketing. Every manufacturer's range specification always says, "Up to xxx Miles." And we have an MPGe number that is essentially meaningless. My car gets 107 MPGe, whatever that means. (My electrical provider does not bill in gallons.)

In the gasoline engine car world, we have Miles Per Gallon figures. They are given to us under Highway Cruising and City Stop-and-Go driving situations. We're given the best case scenario and worst case scenario.

In the EV world, we are given one number. The BEST case scenario.
A more realistic figure of summer and winter range would be preferable and give prospective buyers a more honest figure to calculate with.

But the positives about the FFE are definite negatives in other EVs.

I chose the FFE because it's based on a bog standard Econobox, the gasoline powered Ford Focus. It's a simple, basic car that just happens to be electric.
That's what I was looking for.

I DO NOT need motorized door handles that pop out when I approach the car. Sounds like a hassle in the winter with ice and snow. The Porsche Taycan has vibratory motors to shake loose ice and snow from the door handles. Sounds like something else to fail and need to be replaced... How long are manufacturers going to keep stocking parts like that? I prefer a plastic and metal door handle that I can just grab.

I DO NOT need full self driving.
I DO NOT need summon mode.
I DO NOT need autopilot.
Ditch all that software and computing power. Cut the costs, Simplify.

I DO NOT need a 20 inch tablet in the center stack to control all vehicle functions. HVAC especially; I like knobs and buttons. I do not have to take my eyes off the road to adjust the climate controls with buttons. The Tesla Model Y has a menu to adjust the dashboard vent direction. Again, something that adds expense, distraction, and a point of failure. What's wrong with little plastic flappy louvers for dashboard vents? No software there. No motors there. No added complexity to fail. I'm fine with an 8 inch display for infotainment and navigation.

Ditch all that and you can remove a lot of software development labor and computing power from the car, but you can also eliminate the modem and Over-the-Air updates that are necessary to keep those features alive. What happens to all the modern EVs when 4G-LTE or 5G is sunset like 3G was recently.

I have cars from the 1980s from before when cell phones and even CD players were ubiquitous. Yet these cars have modern Android Auto, streaming audio, navigation, and voice activated features. How/Why? Because I have a computing device that I keep up to date that's separate from the car in my pocket. I install infotainment systems from aftermarket suppliers like Kenwood and Sony. If a new feature comes out that I want, I can opt to upgrade. It's not forced on me and it's not withheld from me based on the whims of a manufacturer.

Hell, my brother has a Tesla Model S. You can play music over the car's horn. You can make a fart noise when a passenger sits down.
What is the purpose of this? It's wasted labor and materials that make the car more expensive and more complex.

And EVERY car is going this way, it's not just EVs... But they did lead the effort to do so.

While I can get service manuals and wiring diagrams for my cars, I cannot get software source code or other types of intellectual property like that. This severely impacts diagnosis and problem solving and hampers right to repair.

Planned obsolescence by making a car a disposable tech gadget...
But instead of upgrading a $200-300 phone and or a $200-300 stereo system every couple years, the entire $50-100K car needs to be updated every few years.

I don't like it.

 

[Heima]

I hear you Pele. Keeping an econobox around to remind me of simpler times.

Lets see, I had a pre-order for the F-150 Lightning, and pre-orders for the Silverado EV and Canoo. I signed up for the Equinox EV, but haven't heard anything. I fancy picking up a Fiat 500e again, very fun to drive.

 

[PlainTom]

I'm not sure if I will by buying another Battery Electric Vehicle.

The Focus has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding legislation and marketing... On paper, the FFE made good sense. My commute is 25 miles one way, at highway speeds, with no charging at work, the 115 mile range as advertised SHOULD work just fine even with a 20-30% reduction (70-80 miles) in the winter and with stickier tires.

While I was very excited to have it the first year I got it when I took delivery in April of 2022, the following winter when I found the range had dropped to FIFTY miles with the heat running, I was less than enthusiastic. Ditching the heat to extend range is not only uncomfortable, but unsafe as the windows fog up.

It's technically not the vehicle's fault, but I believe I was mislead with skewed and missing data and the data is misleading because of poorly worded legislation...

By all accounts, this is a Compliance Vehicle.
Why do Compliance Vehicles even exist?
Ford didn't even try to design a powertrain or battery system. They outsourced the motor to Magna International (A Canadian based conglomerate) and the batteries are made by LG-Chem (South Korea).
It's my understanding that legislation states that manufacturers need to sell Zero-Emissions Vehicles to do business within certain states (California and states that have adopted California's requirements.)

This legislation, again to my understanding, does not specify that it needs to be sold in any number or make up a certain percentage of the manufacturer's volume of sales. This results in a limited production run of cars, only being sold in dense metropolitan areas, and with minimal design effort and zero marketing or dealership support. While Ford was making money hand over fist on the high volume selling and high profit margin trucks and SUVs, these economy cars sat in back lots, unwanted.

But Ford gets to say, "Meh... We tried." And to the letter of the law, they did indeed comply.

Chevrolet has been doing the same with the Bolt (EV) and Spark models. Honda did the same with the Fit electric model. Mazda has done it with the MX-30. All low effort "Attempts" just to tick a box and get around the law.

I believe this legislation needs to be changed to favor people getting into smaller, more efficient vehicles, as legacy auto has had plenty of time resting on their laurels, suckling the high profit teat of SUVs and Trucks.

Because this is a Compliance vehicle, corners were cut. They used a basic economy car shell, but didn't consider adding a little R&D to improve range and marketability. (As they never intended to sell in high volume.) Replacing the steel doors, hood, fenders, and tailgate with aluminum components would have dropped weight. This increases range and practicality of the vehicle, making it more appealing to consumers. It also has a very power hungry resistive heater rather than a more efficient heat pump. This method of heating the cabin results in a VERY poor winter range.

Being that "range anxiety" is one of the common concerns with people that are researching EVs, I believe every effort to achieve maximum range should be made.

Which brings me to deceptive/misleading marketing. Every manufacturer's range specification always says, "Up to xxx Miles." And we have an MPGe number that is essentially meaningless. My car gets 107 MPGe, whatever that means. (My electrical provider does not bill in gallons.)

In the gasoline engine car world, we have Miles Per Gallon figures. They are given to us under Highway Cruising and City Stop-and-Go driving situations. We're given the best case scenario and worst case scenario.

In the EV world, we are given one number. The BEST case scenario.
A more realistic figure of summer and winter range would be preferable and give prospective buyers a more honest figure to calculate with.

But the positives about the FFE are definite negatives in other EVs.

I chose the FFE because it's based on a bog standard Econobox, the gasoline powered Ford Focus. It's a simple, basic car that just happens to be electric.
That's what I was looking for.

I DO NOT need motorized door handles that pop out when I approach the car. Sounds like a hassle in the winter with ice and snow. The Porsche Taycan has vibratory motors to shake loose ice and snow from the door handles. Sounds like something else to fail and need to be replaced... How long are manufacturers going to keep stocking parts like that? I prefer a plastic and metal door handle that I can just grab.

I DO NOT need full self driving.
I DO NOT need summon mode.
I DO NOT need autopilot.
Ditch all that software and computing power. Cut the costs, Simplify.

I DO NOT need a 20 inch tablet in the center stack to control all vehicle functions. HVAC especially; I like knobs and buttons. I do not have to take my eyes off the road to adjust the climate controls with buttons. The Tesla Model Y has a menu to adjust the dashboard vent direction. Again, something that adds expense, distraction, and a point of failure. What's wrong with little plastic flappy louvers for dashboard vents? No software there. No motors there. No added complexity to fail. I'm fine with an 8 inch display for infotainment and navigation.

Ditch all that and you can remove a lot of software development labor and computing power from the car, but you can also eliminate the modem and Over-the-Air updates that are necessary to keep those features alive. What happens to all the modern EVs when 4G-LTE or 5G is sunset like 3G was recently.

I have cars from the 1980s from before when cell phones and even CD players were ubiquitous. Yet these cars have modern Android Auto, streaming audio, navigation, and voice activated features. How/Why? Because I have a computing device that I keep up to date that's separate from the car in my pocket. I install infotainment systems from aftermarket suppliers like Kenwood and Sony. If a new feature comes out that I want, I can opt to upgrade. It's not forced on me and it's not withheld from me based on the whims of a manufacturer.

Hell, my brother has a Tesla Model S. You can play music over the car's horn. You can make a fart noise when a passenger sits down.
What is the purpose of this? It's wasted labor and materials that make the car more expensive and more complex.

And EVERY car is going this way, it's not just EVs... But they did lead the effort to do so.

While I can get service manuals and wiring diagrams for my cars, I cannot get software source code or other types of intellectual property like that. This severely impacts diagnosis and problem solving and hampers right to repair.

Planned obsolescence by making a car a disposable tech gadget...
But instead of upgrading a $200-300 phone and or a $200-300 stereo system every couple years, the entire $50-100K car needs to be updated every few years.

I don't like it.

Pele:
You mentioned "taking delivery in April 2022" so the car must have been pre-owned and at least 4 years old when you acquired it. How many miles did it have on it? Was any vehicle history provided pre-acquisition?

You raise a lot of good points about the design and manufacture of EVs generally, and particularly from the 20-teens era. So few people wanted one that it didn't make financial sense to spend much on development.

But I would point out that the Chevy Bolt is far from a compliance car. We leased a 2020 Bolt for three years and it was so much better in usability, range, comfort, performance, and looks than the FFEs. It's not at all fair to the Bolt to call it a compliance car or to lump it together with the FFE. Any Chevy Bolt that has had its battery replaced would have served you far better than a used FFE if your commute is 50 miles.

My second point is simply that we're still in the "early adopter" phase of development of this transportation technology. It wasn't quite ready for you, but don't give up completely. The charging infrastructure is being rapidly built out, and battery technology breakthroughs are being made now. The EV landscape is going to look very different in the next 2 to 3 years. And you will find the makers have been listening to all the feedback!!

Cheers!

 

[Pele]

Pele:
You mentioned "taking delivery in April 2022" so the car must have been pre-owned and at least 4 years old when you acquired it. How many miles did it have on it? Was any vehicle history provided pre-acquisition?

You raise a lot of good points about the design and manufacture of EVs generally, and particularly from the 20-teens era. So few people wanted one that it didn't make financial sense to spend much on development.

But I would point out that the Chevy Bolt is far from a compliance car. We leased a 2020 Bolt for three years and it was so much better in usability, range, comfort, performance, and looks than the FFEs. It's not at all fair to the Bolt to call it a compliance car or to lump it together with the FFE. Any Chevy Bolt that has had its battery replaced would have served you far better than a used FFE if your commute is 50 miles.

My second point is simply that we're still in the "early adopter" phase of development of this transportation technology. It wasn't quite ready for you, but don't give up completely. The charging infrastructure is being rapidly built out, and battery technology breakthroughs are being made now. The EV landscape is going to look very different in the next 2 to 3 years. And you will find the makers have been listening to all the feedback!!

Cheers!

My FFE had 65k miles on the clock when I bought it.

It came with some records by way of Carfax and dealership warranty repairs.

The transmission had been replaced at one point under warranty.

It came with a banged up passenger fender and needed a little bit of cosmetic work. Other than that, it was fully functional.

 

[jghall00]

Anyone else looking at an upgrade within the next couple of years?

Definitely, but on the fence as to what. My wife now has an I-Pace which is a joy to drive when she lets me drive it. But I WFH most days, so it's difficult to spring for another hefty vehicle payment for a car that I won't put many miles on. I'm either going full value with something like a used Bolt EUV, or full desire and springing for a used GV60. I originally wanted an EV6 GT but after driving the I-Pace I think I would appreciate the nicer interior of the GV60.

 

[Frosty]

I did, I own a 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range, blue with a white interior. I love it, you hear all kinds of things about Teslas, bad build quality etc. but mine was perfect, no issues at all, I never even took it back to the dealership, first time that ever happened to me with a new car. 2 years and 25K miles later still never been back to the dealership.

 

[scottt]

I did, I own a 2021 Tesla Model 3 Long Range, blue with a white interior. I love it, you hear all kinds of things about Teslas, bad build quality etc. but mine was perfect, no issues at all, I never even took it back to the dealership, first time that ever happened to me with a new car. 2 years and 25K miles later still never been back to the dealership.

Ok, gotta ask......white??? I have always thought that it will never look clean. I owned black (exterior) cars for 7 years. I'd wash them, polish, and 20 minutes later it looked like I never touched them.

 

[Varvid]

I had a white Kawasaki EX500 motorcycle in college. That bike looked clean when I could rub dirt off with my thumb. Exteriors are opposite (in my experience) of what one would expect. White rarely needs cleaning, black always looks dirty. I am curious about the White Tesla interior on that Tesla Y. How does it look now, 3 years later?

 

[Varvid]

Definitely, but on the fence as to what. My wife now has an I-Pace which is a joy to drive when she lets me drive it. But I WFH most days, so it's difficult to spring for another hefty vehicle payment for a car that I won't put many miles on. I'm either going full value with something like a used Bolt EUV, or full desire and springing for a used GV60. I originally wanted an EV6 GT but after driving the I-Pace I think I would appreciate the nicer interior of the GV60.

On the used Bolt front, if you qualify (those are all selling for under $20k now) there’s a $4k upfront tax rebate on all used BEV and PHEV vehicles sold at dealers priced under $25k

 

[campfamily]

I did too...i got rid of my FFE in Nov 2018 and replaced it with a Tesla Model 3 LR RWD (not offered by Tesla any more). 53,000 miles, all I've had to do is replace tires at 45,000 miles, and replace a 12V battery ($125 from Tesla, installed in my driveway by Tesla mobile service). I've had one issue requiring a trip to Tesla service, to replace an intermittent harness under the back seat. Other than that, flawless.

 

[jghall00]

On the used Bolt front, if you qualify (those are all selling for under $20k now) there’s a $4k upfront tax rebate on all used BEV and PHEV vehicles sold at dealers priced under $25k

Unfortunately there is an income limit.

 

[TexaCali]

Sold my FFE at 60K miles and 7.5 years from new. I loved the FFE and had planned to keep it until the wheels fell off. Could have used it as a errand car, loaner for friends visiting, etc. BUT......about 3-4 years in the car refused to charge one day. Took it to Ford Dealer right here in Silicon Valley, and they had it for almost 2 months trying to figure out the problem. It was finally sorted, wiring harness issue, and Ford claimed the wiring wasn't under warranty and insisted I pay (about $2k). Aside from being pissed at Ford, I realized there would be zero support for this vehicle once it was out of warranty. It might last a long time, or it might die one month out of warranty and become a worthless door stop.

I sold it with 6 months left on the warranty for way more than I expected and bought a Tesla Model 3 RWD (Nov 2021). I've been very happy with the Model 3. It isn't perfect, but it is the best vehicle I've ever owned. I really can't see owning another ICE car for my use case. Perhaps if I lived in Canada, was constantly doing long road trips and/or couldn't charge at home.

 

[PlainTom]

On the used Bolt front, if you qualify (those are all selling for under $20k now) there’s a $4k upfront tax rebate on all used BEV and PHEV vehicles sold at dealers priced under $25k

Clarifying ... the used EV tax credit is 30% of purchase price UP TO $4,000. The purchase has to be made thru a dealer registered to participate in the Federal Clean Vehicles Credit program. One benefit of this program is that the dealer is encouraged to take the credit up front, off the purchase price of the vehicle (possibly reducing financing costs?) so the buyer doesn't have to wait for the tax credit. The Feds then repay the dealer.

 

[Frosty]

Ok, gotta ask......white??? I have always thought that it will never look clean. I owned black (exterior) cars for 7 years. I'd wash them, polish, and 20 minutes later it looked like I never touched them.

Nope, blue with a white interior and sport wheels, just put a coat of 303 Nano Graphine on it looks awesome

 

[scottt]

Nope, blue with a white interior and sport wheels, just put a coat of 303 Nano Graphine on it looks awesome

Yes, but will a white interior EVER look clean again??

 

[Frosty]

I'm not worried about it it's very resilient, important thing is that you don't use Harsh chemicals or cleaners on vegan leather. I wipe it down every couple of weeks with baby wipes, they leave no residue behind and they will clean all the dust out of the cracks and stuff before it sets in. I also use an EVNV seat cover on the the drivers seat which takes most of the daily abuse. They are great you can find them on Amazon just search "EVNV seat cover". I've had white interiors in cars for years and they do require extra care but I think it's worth it. After 2 years mine still look awesome. Granted I'm retired and I don't have small children in my car on a daily basis, I also never eat, drink or smoke in my cars.