Which Charger

[floppymoose]

So I had this installed and so far so good.

I bought the AeroVironment level 2 charger with the 25' cord. I need to get it installed now, but it has arrived.

I picked it because:
1) it was $999 instead of $1500+
2) it is suitable for outdoor installation
3) it is not horribly ugly
4) it has a long cord, which will give us some flexibility when we need to put both the ICE and FFE in the driveway.
5) it's the partner brand for Nisssan and other EV makers, so it's probably not total crap

I'll write more when it is installed. You can see it here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008RZXWNM

 

[bear79]

OK guys, I need some help understanding the difference in charging time I’m going to see between these two chargers on my Focus EV. Would also appreciate your input on the two units.

Bosch Power Max 30A / 25’ Cord ($749) or 18’ Cord ($593)
Plug-In: No
Hardwired: Yes
Cord Length: 25 feet or 18 feet
Dimensions: 16"L x 14"W x 5"D
Amperage: 30
Voltage: 208 VAC- 240 VAC
Input/Output Power: 7.2 kW
Input Current: 30 Amps
Breaker Size: 30 Amps
Connector/Cable: SAE J1772
Mounting: Wall mount or pedestal
Weight: 14 lbs
Temperature Rating: -22°F to +122°F
Enclosure: NEMA Type 3R; indoor/outdoor rated
Warranty: 3 years*
http://www.pluginnow.com/power-max2

ClipperCreek LCS-25 ($550)
Plug-In: No
Hardwired: Yes
Cord Length: 20 ft
Dimensions: 11"L x 4"W x 3"D
Amperage: 25
Voltage: 208 VAC- 240 VAC
Input/Output Power: 4.8 kW
Input Current: 20 Amps (I’m translating here)
Breaker Size: 25 Amps
Connector/Cable: SAE J1772
Mounting: Wall mount
Weight: 9 lbs
Temperature Rating: -22°F to +122°F
Enclosure: NEMA Type 4; outdoor rated
Warranty: 1 year
http://www.clippercreek.com/products.html

 

[francishsu]

From my experience, a 6.6kw/h or greater (since the car is limited to 6.6kw/h charging) charger charges the battery about 1/3 of capacity per hour (i.e. 3 hours from empty to full).
A 4.8kw/h charger would charge a bit under 25% of capacity per hour (i.e. a little more than 4 hours from empty to full).

Not sure why the Bosch charger is so much more expensive with the 25' cord vs the 18'. The 18' price seems to be a pretty good deal, and even the 25' pricing is decent.

 

[WattsUp]

Charge times are easy to estimate. You need to know four things:

1) The total charge to be stored in the battery (which is 19.5 kWh for an empty FFE).
2) The expected charging efficiency (which is an average of 80% for modern automotive Lithium-ion battery systems, though this can vary somewhat, mostly with the ambient temperature).
3) The maximum wattage of the car's on-board charger (which is 6.6 kW for the FFE).
4) The maximum wattage of the EVSE (which of course varies with the EVSE).

First, find the smaller of items 3 and 4, which will be your charging wattage. The FFE can only charge at the wattage supplied by the EVSE, so if the EVSE can supply less than 6.6 kW, then the FFE will only be able to charge at that lower wattage. Conversely, even if the EVSE can supply more than 6.6 kW (for example, there are some 7.2 kW and higher devices out there), the FFE will still only be able to charge at 6.6 kW.

Next, compute the total energy needed, which is simply item 1 (battery charge needed) divided by item 2 (charging efficiency).

Once you know the total energy needed (in kWh), dividing it by the charging wattage (in kW) will leave just the "h" part of the divided units. Or, in other words, the total charge time in hours, like so:

(total energy needed in kWh / 0.8) / charging wattage in kW = charge time in h (hours)

So, for example, for an EVSE that can supply 6.6 kW to your FFE, the full charge time can be computed like so:

(19.5 kWh / 0.8) / 6.6 kW = 3.69 hours

Note that this result falls exactly in line with the "3-4 hour" charge time for the FFE, as advertised by Ford.

And, for an EVSE like the ClipperCreek LCS-25, that can supply 4.8 kW:

(19.5 kWh / 0.8) / 4.8 kW = 5.08 hours

I actually have the LCS-25, and can confirm that it indeed takes just about 5 hours to fully charge my empty FFE, which is what I expected having performed this computation before my purchase.

-------

Btw, regarding the LCS-25 specifically, you may be interested in my earlier thread about the "portable charging kit" I put together using the LCS-25:

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1004&p=3852

I've had zero issues using the LCS-25 with my FFE, other than a slight "sniffness" inserting/removing the J1772 handle from the charging port, but this seems to be loosening up with use.

 

[Jasper7821]

I also debated on which charger and bough the LSC-25 a few weeks ago directly from Clipper Creek for $595 and $6 shipping and no tax.
I absolutely love it. I got my car while the charge station was being shipped and I wanted to charge at 240v so I went to Home Depot and bought a 4 pin dryer plug and for a few nights I plugged it into the dryer outlet. ( there's only 2 hot wires and the ground so the 4th neutral pin isn't used)

When the electrician came I debated to hardwired it or keep the dryer plug on it and get a 4 pin receptacle.
I chose to keep the plug and he installed everything including a receptacle.

I'm happy I made that choice because they just put in a 4 pin dryer plug for me here at work so now I'll just bring the charging station along with me everyday.
The great thing about the LCS-25 is it's so small and light and it just hangs on the wall with a few screws and just lifts off when you want to transport it.

Anyways, I thought that the car charges slower when the battery is hot so you wouldn't even get the benefit for a 6.6kw charger anyways if you immediately get home and plug in. (at least that's how I thought it worked)

I'm in the Arizona burning heat and by the time I get home I always get a message saying it's hot outside please plug in. So I know my battery is pretty hot when I get home so I don't know if I'm getting the full 4.8kw anyways. I think not because the charge time always says 5-8hrs but then it speeds up after a few hours.

 

[WattsUp]

I thought that the car charges slower when the battery is hot so you wouldn't even get the benefit for a 6.6kw charger anyways if you immediately get home and plug in. (at least that's how I thought it worked)

I'm in the Arizona burning heat and by the time I get home I always get a message saying it's hot outside please plug in. So I know my battery is pretty hot when I get home so I don't know if I'm getting the full 4.8kw anyways. I think not because the charge time always says 5-8hrs but then it speeds up after a few hours.

Charging a battery causes it to heat up, but discharging should not.

And, you are right, a hot battery cannot be charged as quickly, for two reasons:

1) It can damage the battery to overheat it, so the FFE slows charging down to avoid overheating.
2) To combat overheating, the FFE may dedicate some of the EVSE power supply to cooling the battery (which will obviously leave less power for charging).

But, as a function of the battery itself, driving the car (which mostly discharges the battery) does not cause the battery to get hot.

Perhaps though, somewhere like Arizona, simply exposing your FFE to all the radiant heat from the pavement (as you drive home) is enough to heat up the battery by proximity (especially the bottom one). That, plus the already high ambient temps, is obviously enough (in your case) for the car to want to stay plugged in.

 

[WindPowered]

Charging a battery causes it to heat up, but discharging should not.

...

But, as a function of the battery itself, driving the car (which mostly discharges the battery) does not cause the battery to get hot.

I think I know what you intended to mean here, but let's clarify for those who aren't familiar with this.

ALL flow of current generates heat due to resistances, and batteries are no different due to the internal resistance of the battery as current flows through it. So charging OR discharging a battery does generate heat. During driving, sudden large draws (e.g. flooring the "gas" pedal) will generate significant localized heat for brief moments, and the engineers at Ford had to account for this in how the battery internally will dissipate these bursts (e.g. internal passive conductive or convective systems) as well as how the overall temperature of battery is managed (e.g. the active conductive thermal management system), preventing an overall rise in battery temperature through continuous use. Heat is the enemy of any battery, and those thermal management functions are carefully planned and designed at multiple levels as an overall part of characterizing the battery pack's performance, pack life, safety and more.

I think what you meant was that the heat generated during discharging is less problematic than that during charging. I would agree with this, although it actually generates plenty of heat. How can this be, you ask? Let's do some simple reasoning.

It takes about 3.5 hours to fully charge a pack. Likewise I can go about 70 miles on a charge and driving 70 miles an hour, that would fully discharge the pack in about an hour. Which operation is causing more current flow? Clearly the discharge. Now, I'll caveat that by saying it's far more complicated than this, and that Li+ battery chemistries are actually endothermic during charging, and exothermic during discharging, internal resistance is actually very different depending on battery SoC, and there's all kinds of waste heat generated by the other electronic components associated with charging. But overall there's plenty of heat to go around.

However during discharge you're also generally moving, and getting the benefit of convection cooling and more effective use of the radiator and conductive system. So while you're discharging, the heat is less problematic for us, but it's certainly still there.

Here's some interesting reading for folks who want to learn more.

Thermal Management

Keep An Eye On Temperature Trends During Li-ion Battery Charge And Discharge Cycles


WP

 

[WattsUp]

Thanks for the clarifications and elaborations, WP!

 

[Jasper7821]

Thanks for the detailed description.
I'm still a little puzzled.

I fly Remote controlled hexacopters (drones) and use up to 10,000mah lithium polymer batteries.
I always discharge to 80% while flying and never charge the batteries immediately after use.
They should be allowed to cool down for 20-30 minutes.
I also charge at 2C even though the batteries are rated for 5C charging and I think that makes them last longer also since it generates less heat.

I've always done that and it makes my batteries last a lot longer. What I don't get is how does it not hurt the lithium ion battery in the car by immediately plugging in after getting home from my 32 mile commute.

 

[WindPowered]

Thanks for the detailed description.
I'm still a little puzzled.

...

What I don't get is how does it not hurt the lithium ion battery in the car by immediately plugging in after getting home from my 32 mile commute.

WattsUp already adressed this in his previous post.

1) It can damage the battery to overheat it, so the FFE slows charging down to avoid overheating.

Contrary to what one initially might think, the EVSE on the wall is not the battery charger. It's simply a safety interconnected power outlet. Period. The charger is in the car, and fully controls the charging to the battery. That's WattsUp's point #1. So if the battery is reading hot, the charger slows down the charging (i.e. reduces the current) thereby inducing less heat from the charging process.

2) To combat overheating, the FFE may dedicate some of the EVSE power supply to cooling the battery (which will obviously leave less power for charging).

In addition to slowing down the charging, if the battery is still hot the car will use some of the energy it's drawing from the EVSE to run the car's conductive cooling system for the battery, thereby drawing the heat away from the battery and dissipating it into the air. This is exemplified by the fans that you'll hear running when the ambient temperature is hot and you're plugged in and charging.

If need be, the car can completely stop (pause, really) the charging while waiting for the battery temp to come down.

So the short answer to your question of "Why is it that I can charge a hot battery?" is, "Because they designed it to."


WP

 

[Jasper7821]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[JTCalif]

Good answers, WP.

I wonder if am I being overly cautious: I lowered the charging current, thinking to reduce stress on the big battery.
(When ambient temp. got Really warm here, N. of San Francisco, I dialed down from 24 A. to 16 A., assuming there is something like I-squared*R [resistive] heating in part of the process.)

Now, I wonder if I should simply let the control system manage it all, and go back to quicker charging.

This is using the SPX model EL-50600 that I ordered direct from SPX, 949$ a year ago.
It can be set to 32 A. but its connector is marked REV-1-30C, suggesting 30A design, and it does get a bit warm.
I like its small size, portability (plugged into standard 6-50 outlet), flexibility, and that it has worked reliably.

BTW, its manual recommends use of breakers with rating a bit higher than expected charging current (to meet an NEC spec.), so I put in a pair of 40 A. ones. Think 30's would be OK now.

 

[jmueller065]

I have that SPX/Bosch EVSE. It was installed on a program through my local power company. The electrician installing it only put in 30A breakers (he initially put in 20A ones because they do a lot of Volt installs and they leave it set at 20A for the Volt--we found out quickly when they cut out LOL).

So far after a month I haven't had any issues with the EVSE and the 30A breakers. The EVSE did cut out once when we had some bad storms and the power went out but a quick hit on the reset button fixed that.

 

[Plasmadust]

For those that want to take a level 2 on the road. CC now has an official version of the LCS-25, LCS-25P, with nema14-30 plug attached.

ClipperCreek Introduces the Smallest 240V Plug and Cord Connected EV Charge Station Available

The lowest price American made EV charge station is now available with a grid side plug!

AUBURN, Calif., September 16, 2013 -- ClipperCreek has announced the availability of the smallest cord and plug connected, 20Amp, Level 2 EV charging station on the market. Based on the popular LCS-25, this new product features a plug in connection to make installation inexpensive and fast. With a standard 25 foot charge cable, there is no need to juggle cars to plug in.

Customers with existing outlets can purchase the LCS-25P and install it in a matter of minutes by simply attaching it to the wall and plugging the LCS-25P into a 240V outlet. With a retail price tag of $549, and a 3 year warranty, the LCS-25P is a great value.

“We are excited about this new product introduction,” said ClipperCreek President, Dave Packard, “This product will streamline the home installation process and greatly reduce total installation cost in some cases, especially where there is a pre-existing 240V outlet available.”

All ClipperCreek products, including the new LCS-25P, are compatible with and approved for use on all plug-in vehicles including the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Ford plug in vehicles, Tesla Model S, Honda Fit Electric, Toyota Rav4 EV, and Toyota Plug-In Prius.

“ClipperCreek delivers the highest quality products to the market,” said ClipperCreek CEO, Jason France, “the LCS-25P is built to automotive quality standards giving EV drivers assurance the station will charge their vehicle every time providing years of uninterrupted service.”

About ClipperCreek
ClipperCreek products are made in the USA, compatible with every vehicle, and automotive supply chain certified. As a leading supplier of electric vehicle charging infrastructure for over 15 years, millions of electric vehicle charge sessions have relied on ClipperCreek. Unparalleled quality, reliability, and superior customer service are core values at ClipperCreek. Visit our online store at www.buyevse.com where we offer the widest variety of charging stations in the market.

ClipperCreek products are manufactured in Auburn, CA, USA


We carry them here at $550 or so www.evtech.us

 

[dorislindsey]

Same here i am always going in a charger station for charging car,cause it is really hard to choose car charger.In Finland many people use to went also on sähköauton lataus or electric car charging station which they are having doubt on buying charger and i think they have a lot of reason for it.

 

[EVfuture]

Hello,

Electrician is coming to install and EVSE in my garage in a couple weeks. They've suggested two different EVSEs.

By the way, Best Buy Geek Squad came and did the site survey and the completely forgot about me. No one contacted me with a quote, even after I called their very unprofessional customer support line and they said they'd look into it.

I ended up contacting directly the electrical contractor that installed the EVSE at the Ford dealership where I bought the car.

They inspected the site and quoted me on a Ford Leviton charger. They apparently ordered it through Best Buy, but it's now back ordered for two weeks plus.

In order to avoid waiting, the contractor located another supplier (which makes me happy that no money will be going to Best Buy after that fiasco) and suggested a couple of EVSEs that they can get right away.

They are:

1- Leviton EVB45-3PT.

http://site.electricsuppliesonline.com/documents/leviton/car-charger/EVB45-3PT-brochure.pdf

basics: 30 amp, 7.2Kw, 40 amp breaker, 50 amp dedicated circuit, $800-$1000

or

2- Sun Country/Clipper Creek CS-40

https://suncountryhighway.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/SCH_CS_Brochure_2012a.pdf

basics: 32 amp continuous current, 40 amp breaker, $1750 (from mfgr)

- Will the 30 amp vs 32 amp continuous current make and difference in charging times? Does anyone have any experience with either of these models? Which is best for bang for buck and reliability?

Thanks!

 

[WattsUp]

Getting a bigger EVSE will not make your FFE charge any faster than any EVSE that can deliver the maximum usable current to the FFE. The FFE can only charge at a maximum rate of 6.6 kW, which is 27.5 amps at 240V. So, both of your proposed EVSEs are "more" EVSE that your FFE will be able to take advantage of.

I guess the Leviton units are okay, but some people have seemed to have issues. Ford eventually dropped Leviton as their official EVSE partner. ClipperCreek, on the other hand, is known for making some of the best EVSE equipment around. The CS-40 is intended for public installation (parking lots, etc.) and seems a bit overkill for a home solution, IMO.

Some other thoughts for you... If you're going to charge overnight at home most of the time, you might consider that you could be on a path to overspending here (in either of the above scenarios). For example, you could get the ClipperCreek LCS-25, which will fully charge your FFE in 5 hours. It costs less than $500 and can be installed with a simple 240V plug. By comparison, the units above will fully charge your FFE in about 3.5 hours. But, is 1.5 hours faster charging (while you sleep!) really worth paying an extra $1200? (the CS-40) It will make absolutely no difference in the morning.

 

[EVfuture]

Thanks. I'm opting for the less expensive of the two options. Since the car's in constant use, I'll avoid the 5 hr Clipper Creek. That hour to hour and a half quicker charging will come in handy a lot of the time, although I agree that overnight it would make no difference. An investment in convenience, I guess.

 

[Cyclebert]

I just got my FFE yesterday. I ended up getting an Eaton Level 2 through Home Depot (Canada). Did not come with a cord and I attached a stove plug (Nema 14-50). Works great and even my 10 year old daughter can plug in the car. If you do get the same unit I got, don't undo the screws on the blue covers, only the 4 on the metal bits when you open it to attach the 240V cord. The instructions are not that clear.

 

[sjh7707]

I own a 2013 FFE. I have owned it for only 2 weeks now and have driven 420 miles 135.1 kWh. My commute is about 52 miles round trip with some steep hills.

I have had my charger installed for about 2 weeks. It is a Leviton EVB40-PST 9.6kW Charging Station (40A charger).

One interesting thing that I have noticed is that it fully charges my car in 2 hours with a starting point of 10-15% charge. The car always estimates that it will take over 3 hours to charge (3 hours 15 minutes to 3 hours 40 minutes). However, I then get the text message about 2 hours later that it is fully charged. I go out to the car and sure enough it is fully charged.

Just last night, here are the numbers taken from Ford Mobile App. 6:13 PM - 8:12 PM (1 hour 59 minutes). When I parked the car it had 8 miles left on it and somewhere around 13% battery (can't really remember that one).

I got the charger for $950 and installed it with 50A breakers. 6 gauge wire (30') from the breaker box to the charger was used. It uses a NEMA 6-50 plug. I don't have access to any metering devices that tell me how many watts are being delivered while it is charging. However, doing the math shows the following:

19.5kWh battery capacity * 87% needs charged / 80% eff = 21.2 kWh delivered

21.2 kWh / 2 hours = 10.6 kW delivered per hour.

The car is supposedly only a 6.6 kW charger which would equate to 21.2 kWh / 3.33 hours = 6.4 kW thus confirming the initial cars estimate of 3 hours 20 minutes (3.33 hours). The Leviton is capable of 9.6 kW which is very close to the 10 kW calculated above.

I am wondering why it completes the charges so quickly? I thought it would be regulated by the cars charger limit of 30A (6.6kW)?

What charge times is everyone else seeing with their car and charger setup?