campfamily
Well-known member
GM built a few using the EV1 drivetrain in a S10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_S-10_EV
Keith
Keith
How Many of Us Are There?? Focus Electric SalesNews&Info
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TomEV
Well-known member
jmueller065 said:
You are right. They did try. Never heard of it. From this and other articles it was pre-lithium and not successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV
With EV the issue that prevents wide scale adoption is the batteries. Manufacturing cost, relibity, and driving range. The question is who will crack the code that will make it happen? Will the Chevy Bolt, new Nissan Leaf, Tesla model 3 or Ford model E do it?
SpecVStrom
Active member
I would love to believe that Ford is working on a better EV. But I don't.
The FFE is a compliance car so that Ford can sell gas cars in states like CA that have zero emission sales requirements.
Ford hates the FFE! It doesn't make money where all automobile manufacturer's make their money. Repair and maintenance.
That's why they are backing the hybrid cars so strongly. Not only do you have the maintenance expenses of an ICE car, now you have electric drive as well.
I believe Ford went to their engineers and told them to come up with a BEV. I believe those engineers came up with a much better FFE than was actually sold. I bet it was Ford corporate that forced them to tone down the design with archaic incandescent lighting and resistive heating.
I would have liked to see what those EV engineers first came up with.
All this is why Ford does not bother to advertise the FFE. They are making their quotas to sell gas cars. That's all they want. Gas cars make way more money.
About the choice over the Leaf.
I had signed up to buy a Leaf in May of 2010, well before they were delivered. It was the only mass produced choice at the time. When they called me in Jan of 2011 to tell me to come make my purchase arrangements, I had to back out due to divorce
PS the first Leaf delivered in the US was in my resident city of Petaluma.
So, when I was in a position to make a new purchase in 2014, I decided I had better look around at all the new choices since getting on the Leaf bandwagon. I tried to find a Honda Fit EV or Toyota RAV4 EV, but none were available. The iMiEV was just too small and ugly as was the Smart EV and the Fiat 500e. The eGolf and the Kia Soul EV were not out yet. (I like the Soul) So, I drove the FFE before committing to the Leaf.
First, the things the Leaf had that I liked better.
1. The DC fast charger option.
2. Front charging door. Location and durability.
3. Just the idea that it was originally designed as a BEV.
4. More interior room.
But, after test driving the FFE on 3 different occasions, I decided it was the better choice.
Reasons in favor of the FFE.
1. Battery thermal management.
2. The whole cockpit feel. Better instrumentation laid out better, with a better feel and look.
3. Better road feel and handling.
4. Better sound system, Navigation, and having voice commands that were not available or required highest trim level of the Leaf to match.
5. Agreed, it is better looking. But the Leaf appearance doesn't bother me.
6. Nice wheels. I seem to recall the base Leaf had ugly steel wheels.
Final word.
I'm happy with my FFE after 19 months.
I am disappointed that shortly after leasing my FFE, they lowered the sticker price by $6K.
The FFE is a compliance car so that Ford can sell gas cars in states like CA that have zero emission sales requirements.
Ford hates the FFE! It doesn't make money where all automobile manufacturer's make their money. Repair and maintenance.
That's why they are backing the hybrid cars so strongly. Not only do you have the maintenance expenses of an ICE car, now you have electric drive as well.
I believe Ford went to their engineers and told them to come up with a BEV. I believe those engineers came up with a much better FFE than was actually sold. I bet it was Ford corporate that forced them to tone down the design with archaic incandescent lighting and resistive heating.
I would have liked to see what those EV engineers first came up with.
All this is why Ford does not bother to advertise the FFE. They are making their quotas to sell gas cars. That's all they want. Gas cars make way more money.
About the choice over the Leaf.
I had signed up to buy a Leaf in May of 2010, well before they were delivered. It was the only mass produced choice at the time. When they called me in Jan of 2011 to tell me to come make my purchase arrangements, I had to back out due to divorce
PS the first Leaf delivered in the US was in my resident city of Petaluma.So, when I was in a position to make a new purchase in 2014, I decided I had better look around at all the new choices since getting on the Leaf bandwagon. I tried to find a Honda Fit EV or Toyota RAV4 EV, but none were available. The iMiEV was just too small and ugly as was the Smart EV and the Fiat 500e. The eGolf and the Kia Soul EV were not out yet. (I like the Soul) So, I drove the FFE before committing to the Leaf.
First, the things the Leaf had that I liked better.
1. The DC fast charger option.
2. Front charging door. Location and durability.
3. Just the idea that it was originally designed as a BEV.
4. More interior room.
But, after test driving the FFE on 3 different occasions, I decided it was the better choice.
Reasons in favor of the FFE.
1. Battery thermal management.
2. The whole cockpit feel. Better instrumentation laid out better, with a better feel and look.
3. Better road feel and handling.
4. Better sound system, Navigation, and having voice commands that were not available or required highest trim level of the Leaf to match.
5. Agreed, it is better looking. But the Leaf appearance doesn't bother me.
6. Nice wheels. I seem to recall the base Leaf had ugly steel wheels.
Final word.
I'm happy with my FFE after 19 months.
I am disappointed that shortly after leasing my FFE, they lowered the sticker price by $6K.
jmueller065
Well-known member
A few points:SpecVStrom said:
- Ford doesn't care about making money in parts and service: The dealers do. Ford doesn't make money off service; only marginally on parts (I used to work in Ford Parts and Service)
- If Ford really hated the FFE it would wait until NHTSA mandated recalls for the FFE instead of issuing them in advance (I think we're up to 5 recalls now)
- It really doesn't go as far as "hate" its more like apathy: Ford simply doesn't care about the FFE
- Having said the above Ford did announce last October a huge investment in plugin vehicles (although that is all they have announced, no new cars other than the updated Fusion which was a big yawn)
- Ford didn't really design the FFE: Magna went to them with a proposal to make a battery Focus, then Ford ran with it
- Now that I have a C-Max Energi: It has all common parts with the FFE: The same resistive heat, the same vacuum pump in EV mode. Clearly Ford was going for the lowest cost solution to plugins and BEVs
- Ford was working with MIT to come up with an alternative method for heat. Read this: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/513466/novel-heating-system-could-improve-electric-cars-range/
SpecVStrom
Active member
Points above well taken.
But, I still believe that corporate Ford is not behind the FFE at all.
And, I still believe to corporate Ford, the FFE is simply a compliance car to satisfy states like CA.
Finally, if Ford is making an investment in plug-in cars, I bet it is plug-in hybrids and not BEV's.
They build combustion engines, not electric motors. Unless they invest in manufacturing electric motors and electric car components, their profit remains in ICE equipped cars.
It's sad too. I also believe Ford has the engineering and manufacturing expertise to be the leader in BEV's if it wanted to.
But, I still believe that corporate Ford is not behind the FFE at all.
And, I still believe to corporate Ford, the FFE is simply a compliance car to satisfy states like CA.
Finally, if Ford is making an investment in plug-in cars, I bet it is plug-in hybrids and not BEV's.
They build combustion engines, not electric motors. Unless they invest in manufacturing electric motors and electric car components, their profit remains in ICE equipped cars.
It's sad too. I also believe Ford has the engineering and manufacturing expertise to be the leader in BEV's if it wanted to.
jmueller065
Well-known member
Oh I agree with you.SpecVStrom said:
Even Ford has said in the past (paraphrasing a bit):
The implication of the quote is that "but we won't".
For reference:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088986_ford-considers-diesel-hybrid-even-electric-for-new-mustang
I honestly believe the FFE was Bill Ford and Alan Mulally's baby. Now that Mark Field's is in charge (note more of a performance car guy than a "greeny") the FFE (and BEVs in general) is getting a lot less love.
To put it all in perspective, notice what's been happening lately:
“About 116,000 plug-in cars were sold in the U.S. in all of 2015. Tesla just pre-sold more than double that in 24 hrs,” said Max Zanan -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2016/04/03/tesla-model-3-first-ride-yes-tesla-will-sell-a-ton/#4dab86da3893
Well, at least FFE owners can claim 'exclusivity' far more than Leaf or Tesla owners!
“About 116,000 plug-in cars were sold in the U.S. in all of 2015. Tesla just pre-sold more than double that in 24 hrs,” said Max Zanan -- http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2016/04/03/tesla-model-3-first-ride-yes-tesla-will-sell-a-ton/#4dab86da3893
Well, at least FFE owners can claim 'exclusivity' far more than Leaf or Tesla owners!
An update to overall EV sales:
February 2016 National Hybrid, Plug-in, and Electric Sales
HybridCars (Cobb, March 2, 2016) says that, as February goes, it was an okay
month for sales. Keep in mind that February is one of the lowest months for sales, but
this was the best February since 2001. Hybrids only sold 24,000 vehicles in February.
The three Prius models accounted for 10,500 of those and the new Toyota RAV4 hybrid
accounted for 2,500. Toyota had four of the top five hybrid vehicles and took 73.78% of
hybrid sales. The Ford Fusion hybrid was the fourth place entry. Hybrids accounted for
1.8% of new vehicle sales.
The Chevy Volt led plug-in hybrid sales with 1,100 cars sold. This is remarkable
because the 2017 is only sold in a handful of states. As sales expand to the rest of the
country, analysts feel sales will increase. The Volt accounted for 28.8% of plug-in sales.
Ford, however, had the most plug-in sales, as their two plug-ins, the Fusion and C-Max
Energy combined for 36.38% of plug-in sales. Plug-ins take up 0.29% of new car sales
(Cobb).
The electric market was dominated by the Tesla Model S, which sold 1,900 cars,
over twice as many as the next highest seller, the Nissan Leaf. With two electric cars on
sale, the Model S and X, Tesla had 54.25% of electric sales. Electric car sales were
0.33% of new car sales. Overall, the three sectors combined accounted for 2.42% of the
new car market (Cobb).
source: 2016 Washington State DOT
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyr...B2-3B23B6D5FFCC/0/HybridReportMarch152016.pdf
Ford Focus Electrics sold 81 in Feb 2016 for comparison according to insideevs.com. Our relative exclusivity continues on a steady sales march of about 90 or so per month in the U.S., so the Wayne, MI factory is pushing out about 5 or so per day for worldwide use I'd guess. I wonder if they give factory tours, where the Focus Electric, Focus gas, and C-Max cars are all built?
February 2016 National Hybrid, Plug-in, and Electric Sales
HybridCars (Cobb, March 2, 2016) says that, as February goes, it was an okay
month for sales. Keep in mind that February is one of the lowest months for sales, but
this was the best February since 2001. Hybrids only sold 24,000 vehicles in February.
The three Prius models accounted for 10,500 of those and the new Toyota RAV4 hybrid
accounted for 2,500. Toyota had four of the top five hybrid vehicles and took 73.78% of
hybrid sales. The Ford Fusion hybrid was the fourth place entry. Hybrids accounted for
1.8% of new vehicle sales.
The Chevy Volt led plug-in hybrid sales with 1,100 cars sold. This is remarkable
because the 2017 is only sold in a handful of states. As sales expand to the rest of the
country, analysts feel sales will increase. The Volt accounted for 28.8% of plug-in sales.
Ford, however, had the most plug-in sales, as their two plug-ins, the Fusion and C-Max
Energy combined for 36.38% of plug-in sales. Plug-ins take up 0.29% of new car sales
(Cobb).
The electric market was dominated by the Tesla Model S, which sold 1,900 cars,
over twice as many as the next highest seller, the Nissan Leaf. With two electric cars on
sale, the Model S and X, Tesla had 54.25% of electric sales. Electric car sales were
0.33% of new car sales. Overall, the three sectors combined accounted for 2.42% of the
new car market (Cobb).
source: 2016 Washington State DOT
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyr...B2-3B23B6D5FFCC/0/HybridReportMarch152016.pdf
Ford Focus Electrics sold 81 in Feb 2016 for comparison according to insideevs.com. Our relative exclusivity continues on a steady sales march of about 90 or so per month in the U.S., so the Wayne, MI factory is pushing out about 5 or so per day for worldwide use I'd guess. I wonder if they give factory tours, where the Focus Electric, Focus gas, and C-Max cars are all built?
jmueller065
Well-known member
Sort of: The Wayne factory only makes the US FFE's, the Europe ones are built in Germany (with RHD for England, and the older Sync).electrons said:
hybridbear
Well-known member
I agree completely! Sergio Marchionne of FCA has said that part of why the incumbent OEMs are threatened by BEVs is because their core competency is ICE manufacturing, since BEVs don't have an ICE the OEMs don't know how to make them. He has been especially critical of BEVs like the Bolt. He doesn't like the fact that GM outsourced so much of the Bolt's powertrain development to LG Chem.SpecVStrom said: