How about battery replacement/upgrade solutions

[fbitz777]

Members have made claims over time about existing or maybe upcoming ways to replace or upgrade the battery on our 2012-2016 FFEs

To me being assured that solution will be available would go a long way in how I see my 2016 FFE and whether to move on to better things like a 2017 FFE or a Bolt. It is obvious that the battery is the weak link in let's say getting 100k miles out of the car.

I have ZERO confidence that Ford will provide an upgrade or even provide new batteries for us. They are selling only a 1000 FFEs a year (despite themselves not wanting to) and that is peanuts compared to other brands and at the bottom of the list

http://insideevs.com/several-plug-ins-hit-new-2016-highs-as-november-ev-sales-in-us-rise-sharply/



just from simple google search.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-14-Ford-Focus-Electric-Rear-Lower-Battery-23-0-Kwh-OEM-AK-/141931508672?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

 

[EVA]

Sorry if I misunderstand your point. You ask about battery replacement.

The price of the battery has dropped dramatically in the past three years. I just checked at Tousley Ford (sorry for showing my age at finding parts for the FFE - I think the real name is AutoNation Ford White Bear Lake). The battery is $7,681. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that battery being way north of $14,000 when I first got one of these over three years ago.

The battery price is dropping as Ford makes more of them. The FFE pack is two battery packs - and I think the single is the one they used in some other cars.

I can only see that price going down for the near future.

And I don't think I've seen a thread over here about batteries degrading at a significant rate. Unlike the Leaf where all the discussion is about dying batteries.

So I'm not really following your point. Batteries can be replaced. They aren't cheap, but they aren't outrageously expensive either. And there will always be used FFE's around to pull batteries from.

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebearlake.com/auto-parts/2013/ford/focus/electric-trim/electric-engine/electric-propulsion-system-cat/battery-scat

 

[Pearl]

I've come late to this game, compared to you, as I've only owned my FFE for about 9 months, so I don't know if the battery price was ever 14K, but I've seen them over 8K, even recently. So the fact that they are dropping in price is a good thing. I'm not sure, however, if the will be cheap enough in a few years when they do fail, to invest 5,6,or 7 thousand dollars in nearly 10 year old 76 mile EV that will be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $4-5000. In 2023 nobody will want an EV with less than 200 miles of range.

 

[fbitz777]

Thanks,
I did not realize that Ford would actually have a real price on the battery pack as I assumed that most repairs would be done via sending the battery out and re-packing and ending up with a used battery.

If I could get a brand new battery (23 or 33kwh) in let's say 3 years under 5-6k I'd say it might be great.

Even Tesla has not been able to produce under 150-200$/per kwh so I don't think Ford is price gouging.

Just trying to strategize on whether to even keep my 2016 FFE or trade up while it's still in great condition (batterywise)

 

[EVA]

Don't think battery condition will affect your resale or trade in value. Nobody pricing these cars knows anything about the batteries - that doesn't enter into the equation at all.

All they understand is mileage. Used FFE's are considered ultra low mileage cars. So dealers try to price them that way. Except the market is mostly flooded with off lease cars that went to auction. I would guess a lot of dealers sent people that didn't understand the resale of these cars. And they got stung paying too much at auction.

And when I say flooded, there are a limited number of people that know about the FFE. And fewer still in the market for a used one. They are an amazing deal right now. Probably will continue to be a great deal.

Then add that to the MK3 ICE Focus has been dealt a really bad blow from Consumer Reports with the transmission issue and Ford Sync. The FFE gets that lovely halo effect.

If you are considering a 2017 with the larger battery - you should probably jump on it. Incentives are the key - and there are some big ones right now. Your trade in value will not be anywhere near what you'd probably like. Don't forget, if you buy, you get that $7500 federal tax credit. There is no limit to the number of those credits you can take in a single year. And it is anybody's guess if that credit will still be around next year.

 

[triangles]

To me being assured that solution will be available would go a long way in how I see my 2016 FFE and whether to move on to better things like a 2017 FFE or a Bolt. It is obvious that the battery is the weak link in let's say getting 100k miles out of the car.

Jesus! You bought a car not a computer/smart phone. I'm not sure why you would have any expectation of an upgrade especially on something as new as a 2016 FFE! There is no precedent for this. When has Ford, GM, Chrysler or for that matter any auto manufacture that doesn't start with at "t" offer an upgrade on an existing or old product? 5-10 years down the road if there were 10s of thousands of FFE's on the road I'm sure someone would create an aftermarket solution. The problem for us is that there aren't 10s of thousands of us so there's no incentive for anyone except maybe a hobbyist to do the R&D required for a battery upgrade. It's not hard it just takes time and money. Quite frankly the money part of the equation isn't there. You're crazy if you think ford will make the investment for upgrading our batteries when maybe only a handful of FFE owners would spend the cash to upgrade the battery. At some point years down the road when my range in summer drops below 50mi, I may be that hobbyist but I doubt it since my FFE will probably be rusty and not worth putting a better battery in. To be honest it strikes me as odd that you seem to be complaining about the lack of a battery upgrade and at the same time itching to replace a car that's still practically brand new.

 

[Pearl]

I have to agree with triangles. Ford has sold a million Escapes, yet there is no manufacturer upgrade to give me the larger engine, or pano sunroof, or power lift-gate.
It's unreasonable to expect anything regarding upgrade-ability. Especially for such a low volume car.

 

[campfamily]

I have to agree with triangles. Ford has sold a million Escapes, yet there is no manufacturer upgrade to give me the larger engine, or pano sunroof, or power lift-gate.
It's unreasonable to expect anything regarding upgrade-ability. Especially for such a low volume car.

I don't think this is the same thing as your Escape analogy. Instead, let's assume that, after 50,000 miles, your Escape only got, say, 20 mpg, instead of the 30 mpg it got when it was new. Would you expect Ford to do something about it? You bet you would. Either under warranty on their nickel, or via a paid-for maintenance action (tune-up?) that restored full performance. Why shouldn't an EV owner expect the same?

 

[Pearl]

I'm only saying that an "upgrade kit" will never happen.
If the car fails to perform as designed, within a reasonable warranty period, yes, the manufacturer should take car of it on their dime. If my gas engine drops in fuel economy from a consistent 30mpg to 15 after 5 years (and the warranty has expired), there is no implied responsibility on the part of the manufacturer.

 

[campfamily]

I'm only saying that an "upgrade kit" will never happen.
If the car fails to perform as designed, within a reasonable warranty period, yes, the manufacturer should take car of it on their dime. If my gas engine drops in fuel economy from a consistent 30mpg to 15 after 5 years (and the warranty has expired), there is no implied responsibility on the part of the manufacturer.

To me, the implied responsibility is for the manufacturer to provide a path (at the owners expense) to regain that performance. If my Escape drops in fuel mileage because the plugs are fouled, or the air filter is clogged, or it needs a valve job, I can restore the performance by making the repairs. But, if my battery performance drops such that, instead of a range of 75 miles, I can only go 45, I should have a path, endorsed and promoted by Ford, to regain that performance. Which, by the way, is the "perform as designed" that you reference above.

Remember the 1950's, when getting 75,000 miles out of a car without a major repair or replacement was rare? I remember as a kid when the odo on our 1958 Mercury Commuter station wagon turned over 100,000 miles; it was a huge event, involving stopping on the side of the road, taking a picture of the dash, etc. To this day, my Dad (87 years old) still remembers that. Now, it's expected out of a car. Why shouldn't we expect that in our electric cars? Not for free, but with an affordable and reasonable path to achieve.

Keith

 

[jmueller065]

To me, the implied responsibility is for the manufacturer to provide a path (at the owners expense) to regain that performance. If my Escape drops in fuel mileage because the plugs are fouled, or the air filter is clogged, or it needs a valve job, I can restore the performance by making the repairs. But, if my battery performance drops such that, instead of a range of 75 miles, I can only go 45, I should have a path, endorsed and promoted by Ford, to regain that performance. Which, by the way, is the "perform as designed" that you reference above.

They do this now, for a cost: You can replace the battery with one exactly like it (23kWh and all).

There is a difference from simple parts replacement to battery upgrade...

Now, exclusively by Ford, we're offering 60 gallon gas tanks for your F-250/F-350. Double your range!

See...it doesn't happen but you can go get the exact same gas tank replaced.

 

[EVA]

Campfamily - I think you have to adjust your thinking a little bit.

There is nothing to tune on the car. Essentially the only thing that can go wrong that affects performance is the battery. The electric motor should run for as long as you want to drive the car. And those can be rebuilt. The electronics can fail, but they can in any other car.

The battery is a special case. It is different from an ICE. The only standard is range. When the range drops below an acceptable threshold, you replace the battery (acceptable can be defined by Ford and you get a warranty replacement, or defined by you and you pay for the replacement). It really is as simple as that. And you can buy a battery today, and likely for the foreseeable future. I mentioned it will set you back a few thousand dollars.

This isn't too different from a laptop. When the laptop doesn't hold a charge any more - what do you do? If it is a user replaceable battery, you buy a new one. If it is a buried one, you either figure out how to get the tools and the video on how to change it out; you take it to a shop to change it; or you buy a new laptop.

Like a laptop, for really popular laptops, some companies make higher capacity batteries. But those are now super rare. And there had to be tons of that laptop around for anybody to think about it. Aftermarket batteries are available for popular laptops. Not weird one off laptops that didn't sell very well.

Like a laptop - we are in the weird one off land. There just aren't enough of these around for anybody to think about replacement batteries or upgrades. It makes no financial sense to do that.

Dropping the 2017 battery in your car - bet that won't happen. There is probably a really good reason why not - we just don't know the answer.

 

[ATL-FFE]

There are a couple of companies (and more sure to follow) which specialize in 3rd party battery replacement / upgrade. For cars like the Leaf, Bolt, that's a no-brainer. Ours, being so low volume, could get left behind, but. . .

There's nothing stopping you (provided you have the skillset) from acquiring and replacing the cells. The EV1 had folks doing this at home. Now, as far as $1000 drive-in battery replacements for this car? Probably not... again, just a market size problem. THey didn't make enough of these for anyone to make a business replacing these batteries.

For what I paid, the car is disposable. I'll get a few years out of it (at least), which is easily cheaper than the depreciation on almost any other 3-yr old car. Then I'll buy a 3 year old Bolt and do it all over.

 

[kalel14]

A 2012 ICE Focus hatch up-optioned like an FFE stickered for about $19,000. Right now, with 60,000 miles on it, the trade in in very good condition is $7200.

So if your two considered options if you need a battery at 60,000 miles are to (1) spend $7000 on a battery to run another five years, or (2) eat $11,800 of depreciation over the next five years on a new car, the battery looks cheap.

I bought a low mileage used model. Even if I eventually buy a battery, I'll still have spent way under $20,000 for cutting edge tech, which makes it cheaper than most Kias.