Thermal battery management only works on 240V and RTD?

[studio460]

Okay, here's my typical commute: I begin a 31-mile drive in the mid-afternoon from the South Bay to the San Fernando Valley. Although ambient temps can be as high as 100+ degrees there, recently they've only been 85-95 degrees in the afternoon. So, I arrive to work, a ground-level asphalt parking lot with no shade. I park facing west to plug-in my 120V EVSE into an outdoor outlet. I return from my shoots typically around 9PM. Two nights in a row, last night and tonight, when I returned to my car, the thermal management system engaged as soon as I put the car in "go" mode. It stayed on for about 15 minutes then turned off. The ambient temp at this time was around 72 degrees. Does this sound normal?

Another instance: I left for work from home yesterday, and I noticed a an electric motor "whine" as I backed out of our white, concrete driveway (partial shade from some Queen Palms in the front yard). I believe the had TMS turned on. But it was off before I turned the car on. Ambient was probably about 80 degrees, if that (I live in a beach city). This, after 10 hours of 120V EVSE charging overnight, which completed 3.5 hours prior to my departure. The weird thing is it only started when I turned the car on. The reason I think it's abnormal, is that we've had days prior just as hot, and before the last two days I had never heard the TMS turn on. Maybe I just never noticed it? But reading about it here made me aware of it, and I was always subconsciously kind of listening for it to come on (which it never did). Thoughts?

 

[jmueller065]

The weird thing is it only started when I turned the car on. The reason I think it's abnormal, is that we've had days prior just as hot, and before the last two days I had never heard the TMS turn on.

Are you sure that wasn't the vacuum pump? When I start mine after its been sitting a while (regardless of outside temp) the vacuum pump kicks on. Since there is no ICE to provide a vacuum for the brakes the FFE has a pump that provides it when one is needed (I also hear it run after pressing the brake pedal as that uses up some of the vacuum).
On my car it sounds like a very large aquarium pump.

 

[studio460]

Hmmm . . . I'm not sure what it is then. It has a "whine" like an electric motor. How long does the vacuum pump usually stay on?

 

[jmueller065]

About 4-6 seconds or so. Not long.

 

[hybridbear]

What does the TMS sound like?

 

[WattsUp]

What does the TMS sound like?

It sounds like the radiator fan coming on (because that is what is it). It is quite loud if you are standing right by the car. You might also hear gurgling and other "pumping" noises due to the coolant being circulated, but the fan will be the loudest thing.

 

[EVA]

It is possible the battery got a little warm while charging it at 110V. The TMS might not turn on at that just warm point and with 110V charging. When you start the car, there is full power available and the TMS might try to get the battery down to a lower temp.

Not sure I would worry about it too much. Because the cars are so quiet, all kinds of stuff you'd never hear in an ICE make noise now.

The thing you will love though - turning on the AC before you get in the car. That is amazing when it is 110 degrees outside. Or the opposite, turning on the heat when it is -20 outside (but you'll never see that scenario, you all shiver when it gets below 60 degrees) :lol:

 

[studio460]

TMS is not very active/effective when plugged in to 120v, because there is so little power available. When you start the car, it has full HV Battery power available so the system becomes much more active, if cooling or heating of the battery is called for. If you plug in to a 240V L2 EVSE, the TMS is fully active while charging so the amount it runs after starting the car is less. The battery heats up and cools down quite slowly, so a battery can still require heating or cooling hours after the outside temperature has changed.

Yes, that all makes sense, but I thought one of the main reasons for leaving the car plugged-in was in case it needed to enable its TMS.

 

[studio460]

It sounds like the radiator fan coming on (because that is what is it).

Yup! That's it. I was the TMS turning on.

 

[studio460]

It is possible the battery got a little warm while charging it at 110V. The TMS might not turn on at that just warm point and with 110V charging. When you start the car, there is full power available and the TMS might try to get the battery down to a lower temp.

Yes, I presumed the same. However, the only thing that worries me is that I don't recall ever hearing the TMS engage on previous days which were much hotter. Thanks for everyone's reply!

 

[studio460]

TMS and most every other neat "shore power" features of the car work to some degree on the L1 EVSE that comes with the car, but after getting my L2 EVSE installed and experiencing the way these features work when plugged in to L2, it becomes quite obvious that the car and it features were designed around the assumption that the car would normally be plugged into L2 . . .

Very interesting. Thanks for clearing that up! I should have my L2 charger installed this Saturday at home. At work (where the heat and the asphalt are), I'll still be using my L1 charger, unfortunately.

 

[studio460]

UPDATE:

Okay, I came home about 1:30AM, and I plugged in the car a little over an hour ago. It's now 2:45AM, with an ambient temperature of 67 degrees. I just walked outside to check the car, and heard the thermal battery management system whizzing away, full-blast.

Here's my day's driving history: EVENT DURATION/AMBIENT TEMPERATURE

02:00PM-03:00PM/75-79 degrees: DRIVE 31.4 miles.
03:00PM-09:20PM/79 degrees: CHARGE/LEVEL 1 at work, parked on unshaded asphalt.
09:30PM-10:00PM/68 degrees: DRIVE 9.3 miles.
10:00PM-01:00AM/67 degrees: PARKED on asphalt which had been previously shaded.
01:00AM-01:30AM/67 degrees: DRIVE 15.9 miles.
01:30AM/67 degrees: CHARGE/LEVEL 2 START.
02:45AM/67 degrees: COOLING system noticed to be active (duration unknown).
03:20AM/66 degrees: CHARGE/LEVEL 2 COMPLETE.

 

[jmueller065]

How full was the battery at the time of plug-in? Frequently the TMS will come on near the end of the charge as the battery heats up more and more.

Frankly: Is the car's range as expected? Is it driving satisfactorily without any faults showing on the dash? Your car is most likely just fine. You get used to the TMS running.

 

[studio460]

I'm not concerned that the TMS is turning on at night when it's 67 degrees outside after only driving 16 miles. What concerns me is driving 70MPH for 30+ miles, then parking on hot asphalt in 90-100+ degree weather, and immediately plugging in my 120V EVSE, and the fact that the TMS does not engage, since apparently TMS is active only when plugged into a Level2 EVSE (or, when the car is "on"). Performing this same sequence over and over, throughout the long, hot summer days, characteristic of the San Fernando Valley, simply cannot be good for the batteries.

I could delay the charge time at work, but there really isn't enough time to allow the battery to cool and charge, before I have to leave for home again. Ideally, once I arrive to work, I would leave the car "on," so the TMS could engage, then begin the 120V charge one or two hours later, but I don't think this programming sequence is possible (once I arrive to work, I usually then jump in a company vehicle and go to some location somewhere for several hours). I know that charging Li-ion batteries while they're hot is the fastest way to shorten their life, and I'd just like to minimize that. Has anyone witnessed their TMS engage with the car "off," while plugged into only a 120V EVSE?

 

[jmueller065]

Keep in mind that charging at Level 1 will not generate nearly as much heat as Level 2 (its almost 4x the charging rate: twice the voltage and twice the current). Thus even after driving for a while and parking the TMS may not immediately turn on when you plug in at work on Level 1.

 

[WattsUp]

What concerns me is driving 70MPH for 30+ miles, then parking on hot asphalt in 90-100+ degree weather, and immediately plugging in my 120V EVSE, and the fact that the TMS does not engage, since apparently TMS is active only when plugged into a Level2 EVSE (or, when the car is "on"). Performing this same sequence over and over, throughout the long, hot summer days, characteristic of the San Fernando Valley, simply cannot be good for the batteries.

It is possible, by the time you arrive home, since the car has been on, and may have already engaged TMS to a sufficient degree, the battery temperature is nominal.

TMS does engage when plugged in to Level 1, though seemingly not as often as with Level 2, and not the same degree (never seems to run "full tilt" as it can when plugged into Level 2 or by turning the car on). But, it does engage.

 

[EVA]

What you might end up seeing is during the summer, on 110V, the battery charging slower than when it is cooler out. On 110V the car has a certain amount of power to use. Ford has done a great job dividing the power up - if it needs some power to run the TMS, it will charge the car at a slower rate. It does what it needs to do to keep the batteries happy.

Don't worry in advance about the summer. The car will be fine.

 

[studio460]

Thanks for your replies. It's just that in those instances described in the first post, after unplugging my 120V EVSE, the TMS engaged only after the car was turned on, and/or, I plugged into a 240V EVSE. Once the car was either turned on, or plugged into a 240V EVSE, the TMS immediately engaged (whereas it wasn't running at all, just moments before, when plugged into a 120V EVSE).

Ideally, once I arrive to work, I would leave the car "on," so the TMS could engage, then begin the 120V charge one or two hours later, but I don't think this programming sequence is possible . . .

Actually, since you can remote start/stop the car from a smartphone, I could actually leave the car "on," once arriving at work (prompting the TMS to turn on), then remote "stop" the car a while later. I could also set a pre-programmed "work" profile to delay the 120V start time a bit.

 

[jmueller065]

Actually, since you can remote start/stop the car from a smartphone, I could actually leave the car "on," once arriving at work

When you remote start the car it will only run for about 15 minutes before it shuts off.

Honestly, since you can plug in at work I'd just plug it in and forget it..the TMS will take care of itself. The FFE does a really good job of that (taking care of itself).

 

[hybridbear]

Thanks for your replies. It's just that in those instances described in the first post, after unplugging my 120V EVSE, the TMS engaged only after the car was turned on, and/or, I plugged into a 240V EVSE. Once the car was either turned on, or plugged into a 240V EVSE, the TMS immediately engaged (whereas it wasn't running at all, just moments before, when plugged into a 120V EVSE).

Ideally, once I arrive to work, I would leave the car "on," so the TMS could engage, then begin the 120V charge one or two hours later, but I don't think this programming sequence is possible . . .

Actually, since you can remote start/stop the car from a smartphone, I could actually leave the car "on," once arriving at work (prompting the TMS to turn on), then remote "stop" the car a while later. I could also set a pre-programmed "work" profile to delay the 120V start time a bit.

Delaying the start of 120V charging at work when not absolutely necessary is a good idea. Then the car can use all the 120V power for TMS and not for charging when the TMS is needed.