13 Mths and 14Kmi so far, My thoughts to those considering

[WattsUp]

Wattsup - thanks for that explanation about gas engines and 80% being lost to heat. Now I think I understand why wind resistance is not as big a deal, or makes such a dramatic change in MPG for an ICE car.

Sure ...although the physics of aerodynamics are just the same for an ICE, of course, and more mechanical energy (output) is still required to go faster.

But, another factor with ICE engines is that they are much less efficient during city driving (running at higher RPMs, in lower gears) than they are during freeway driving (running at lower RPMs, in higher gears).

In fact, the difference is dramatic. The increased efficiency of running at lower RPMs actually more than offsets the exponentially greater energy required to go faster. This is why ICE cars typically have higher MPG ratings for freeway driving even though more total mechanical energy is being output... and highlights how grossly inefficient ICE vehicles are at lower speeds.

 

[Rogerschro]

Wattsup - thanks for that explanation about gas engines and 80% being lost to heat. Now I think I understand why wind resistance is not as big a deal, or makes such a dramatic change in MPG for an ICE car.

Sure ...although the physics of aerodynamics are just the same for an ICE, of course, and more mechanical energy (output) is still required to go faster.

But, another factor with ICE engines is that they are much less efficient during city driving (running at higher RPMs, in lower gears) than they are during freeway driving (running at lower RPMs, in higher gears).

In fact, the difference is dramatic. The increased efficiency of running at lower RPMs actually more than offsets the exponentially greater energy required to go faster. This is why ICE cars typically have higher MPG ratings for freeway driving even though more total mechanical energy is being output... and highlights how grossly inefficient ICE vehicles are at lower speeds.

Another factor on ICE vehicles is they have gears. For example, the Focus Auto has a DCT 6 speed that has a higher gear ratio and on the highway can still get good gas milage, yet the same Focus with the 5 sp manual trans has a lower gear ratio and does noticeably worse. The FFE has only one gear. That works well for most driving situations, but under highway speeds, it becomes somewhat of a liability. It would be great if the car had a different gear for highway driving, but the electric motor has almost all of it's torque in the low range, as you rev higher it falls off. I think if they tried to put a highway gear in, the strain on the motor would cause premature wear and overheating of the wires, so a high rev is preferable in those conditions. ICE vehicles have more torque in the higher ranges so gain efficiency there and can utilize higher gear ratios for highway speeds. But even ICE suffer drag and will overheat if put under too much strain for too long. I owned the ICE Focus and I would get about 40+ mpg at 55 but when I was at 65 it was more like 32 and higher than that it fell off even more, into the mid/ high 20's. So there's around 13 miles lost right there. If the ICE had a 2 gal. tank, it would look like the same extreme loss of range as the FFE has.
Also, don't forget, the FFE range estimates assume constant use at the current level until empty, so actual range is usually much better. I find it sort of handy that it under emphasizes the range, I know it isn't as close as it seems to empty, so I feel like I have a bit of a cushion if I am hitting the limit, I have a lot less attack of the nerves about whether I will make it.

 

[jmueller065]

The only time I've ever seen an ICE drop gas mileage significantly was in a 2002 Buick Rendezvous with 4 people, a great big pile of luggage, and a 29 cubic foot roof rack packed full driving in the mountains. When I drove 80 - 90, I had to stop for gas more frequently. The number of stops were enough that it was faster to drive 70 and stop less. That's a way underpowered engine and a ton of wind resistance at work.

You guys have no idea about wind resistance! Let me tell you about my motor home! LOL

(Yes you are all spot on Since we're talking EVs here I won't go into how our relatively small motor home with the "largeish" 6.8L engine only gets around 9mpg @ 70 ... 10 if I drop down to 65mph)

 

[michael]

Wattsup - thanks for that explanation about gas engines and 80% being lost to heat. Now I think I understand why wind resistance is not as big a deal, or makes such a dramatic change in MPG for an ICE car.

Sure ...although the physics of aerodynamics are just the same for an ICE, of course, and more mechanical energy (output) is still required to go faster.

But, another factor with ICE engines is that they are much less efficient during city driving (running at higher RPMs, in lower gears) than they are during freeway driving (running at lower RPMs, in higher gears).

In fact, the difference is dramatic. The increased efficiency of running at lower RPMs actually more than offsets the exponentially greater energy required to go faster. This is why ICE cars typically have higher MPG ratings for freeway driving even though more total mechanical energy is being output... and highlights how grossly inefficient ICE vehicles are at lower speeds.

Another factor on ICE vehicles is they have gears. For example, the Focus Auto has a DCT 6 speed that has a higher gear ratio and on the highway can still get good gas milage, yet the same Focus with the 5 sp manual trans has a lower gear ratio and does noticeably worse. The FFE has only one gear. That works well for most driving situations, but under highway speeds, it becomes somewhat of a liability. It would be great if the car had a different gear for highway driving, but the electric motor has almost all of it's torque in the low range, as you rev higher it falls off. I think if they tried to put a highway gear in, the strain on the motor would cause premature wear and overheating of the wires, so a high rev is preferable in those conditions. ICE vehicles have more torque in the higher ranges so gain efficiency there and can utilize higher gear ratios for highway speeds. But even ICE suffer drag and will overheat if put under too much strain for too long. I owned the ICE Focus and I would get about 40+ mpg at 55 but when I was at 65 it was more like 32 and higher than that it fell off even more, into the mid/ high 20's. So there's around 13 miles lost right there. If the ICE had a 2 gal. tank, it would look like the same extreme loss of range as the FFE has.
Also, don't forget, the FFE range estimates assume constant use at the current level until empty, so actual range is usually much better. I find it sort of handy that it under emphasizes the range, I know it isn't as close as it seems to empty, so I feel like I have a bit of a cushion if I am hitting the limit, I have a lot less attack of the nerves about whether I will make it.

This is an area that the Volt handles cleverly. They have two separate electric motors connected using a planetary gearbox. At low speeds, only one motor is used. At high speeds, both run and the rotational speeds are added together, allowing the motors to run more slowly for a given output shaft speed.

 

[Steve0512]

My question is is there any way to improve efficiency at higher speeds or is all the energy going to wind and tire resistance?

Well if you diverted more power to the nacelles, you could create a warp field around the whole car. That would alter time and space in front of you, which would negate the wind and tire resistance. However any gains would be offset by the amount of energy you would have to expend to maintain antimatter containment. So all in all, you should just drive slower.

 

[Snowman]

I agree with the OP. I've only had it for 4 months and ~3K miles but the car has been excellent. It is a niche customer base but I fit it perfectly. My commute is 32 miles round trip. Almost all of that is highway where I'm going 70+ MPH and since I'm in the very cold northeast, I keep the heater on 72 degrees most of the time. Doesn't matter that I am only getting ~50 miles range in the cold weather since I only need 32 most days. Also I am only 24 miles from Boston and most parking lots there have chargers as well so it works great for getting in and out of the city. I have seen as low as ~40-45 miles range when the temperature was at zero most the day and it sat in a parking lot for 9 hours.

I have only seen the orange battery once when I went out after work, but even then if I had not used my heater as much I probably wouldn't have even seen that. We have chargers at work but I've never used them. I would if needed, but since this is just a commuter, no need. I did invest in the Schneider 240V charger and that has been great. It allows me to use the car twice per day on weekends.

My biggest gripe is the cup holders, they are absolutely useless. And I am in the minority when I say I like the Sync system. I'm in the car about an hour a day, I listen to music and use my phone occasionally and it does that very well.

 

[hybridbear]

This is an area that the Volt handles cleverly. They have two separate electric motors connected using a planetary gearbox. At low speeds, only one motor is used. At high speeds, both run and the rotational speeds are added together, allowing the motors to run more slowly for a given output shaft speed.

Are you referring to the new Volt or current Volt? Did Chevy do something like the new D version of the Model S where each motor has a specific operating range where it is most efficient?

My biggest gripe is the cup holders, they are absolutely useless. And I am in the minority when I say I like the Sync system. I'm in the car about an hour a day, I listen to music and use my phone occasionally and it does that very well.

I agree with both of your statements. We also dislike the cup holders and like Sync/MFT.

 

[WattsUp]

We also dislike the cup holders and like Sync/MFT.

I actually like both.

I don't see what is so wrong about the cupholders. They hold my cups without much fuss. The rubber flap gets less "sticky" with time, but I also like that it holds cups firmly. The ambient light in the cupholder (that makes my water bottle glow at night) is also a nice touch.

 

[michael]

This is an area that the Volt handles cleverly. They have two separate electric motors connected using a planetary gearbox. At low speeds, only one motor is used. At high speeds, both run and the rotational speeds are added together, allowing the motors to run more slowly for a given output shaft speed.

Are you referring to the new Volt or current Volt? Did Chevy do something like the new D version of the Model S where each motor has a specific operating range where it is most efficient?

This is part of the current (old) Volt

See

http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=229545&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,aid_229545&dfpLayout=article


It has a large and a small electric motor, both connected to a planetary drive together with the engine and output.

The following applies to electric (what they call charge depleting) mode: Below 70 MPH, only the large electric motor powers the wheels. Above 70 MPH, both the large and small electric motors turn, and the planetary gear adds their rotational speeds. So each motor is spinning more slowly and is more efficient. Also, the Volt has a much higher top speed than the FFE. (100 MPH)

The other function of the small motor is as the generator when in charge sustaining (hybrid) mode.

 

[jmueller065]

the Volt has a much higher top speed than the FFE.

The FFE's top speed is governed in software. It wouldn't surprise me if the FFE could go 100 (it may take a while for it to get up there).

 

[michael]

You're right that it's governed in software, but I've always assumed the limit was established to avoid overspeed of the motor, or at least to avoid putting it in a regime where it's very inefficient or prone to rapid wear. Volt also is software limited, but they apparently felt that 100 is OK, even on battery.

In any event, Volt handles high speed in a manner that provides better efficiency by using the generator as a second motor.

 

[WattsUp]

Volt also is software limited, but they apparently felt that 100 is OK, even on battery.

84 mph or 100 mph, neither are legal driving speeds in very many places in the US.

 

[michael]

The discussion had to do with efficiency at speed. The discussion related to the fact that ICE cars have transmissions. I was pointing out that electric car can achieve a similar result by clever design. The aerodynamic penalties of high speeds are worsened by the lack of efficiency at high motor speeds.

80 MPH is a common freeway speed here in LA, especially in the carpool lane. The FFE is nearing its limit at that speed. And both the Volt and FFE are seen at race tracks where the top speed does matter.

 

[WattsUp]

The discussion had to do with efficiency at speed. The discussion related to the fact that ICE cars have transmissions.

I know, I contributed to much of it.

And both the Volt and FFE are seen at race tracks where the top speed does matter.

I suppose that matters to race cars. Most of us don't race our cars, though.

You're point about 80 mph is fair (though I've never been able to drive faster than about half that whenever I've visited LA ), but "top speed" is not very relevant to everyday driving. I don't mind that my FFE can't go 100 mph (or that the Volt can).

 

[v_traveller]

I think top speed is very relevant to everyday driving. What if the top speed of the FFE were restricted to 70mph, or even 80mph, instead of 85mph? For me, I would have gotten something else.

For some of us on LA freeways that use the carpool lanes, the top speed of the FFE can be impeding at times. Most if not all carpool lanes here have restricted entry/exit areas, and for me, merging comfortably into traffic that's going 80mph+ with a small window of opportunity requires achieving a speed slightly above that traffic, merging, then settling into everyone else's cruising speed once fully merged.

There seems to be a psychology to merging into the carpool lanes down here. If you try to merge in while going slower or at the same speed as the carpool lane traffic, more often than not the a-hole in the carpool lane will try to close the gap. But if you're going faster than that a-hole, he usually won't try to cut you off. And there are a lot of a-holes down here in the HOV lanes.

LA drivers out there - does this happen to you, or is it just me?

I know we're way off topic here, but I figured we were already down this rabbit hole many posts ago....

 

[NightHawk]

I am amused that the FFE's speedometer goes up to 125mph when its limited to 85mph.
They should have at least put a red line at 85 or something on the meter.

As far as the HOV freeway lanes, I haven't had any problems there with my FFE in San Diego county.
I can merge at about 65-70mph fine and most cars there don't seem to go much over 70mph most of the time anyway.
I can go 70-80mph when I notice its downhill so the wh/mile reading is low and then I slow down to 65mph when its not downhill and use cruise control.

 

[WattsUp]

I think top speed is very relevant to everyday driving. What if the top speed of the FFE were restricted to 70mph, or even 80mph, instead of 85mph?

Sure, if the top-speed were crippled, then yes it would matter. But, that's almost never the case. (Is there any EV that can't go at least 80 mph?) I was assuming top speed is something significantly above any reasonable speed limit, as it is in virtually all cars... and therefore not relevant to everyday driving.

IMO, the top speed of the FFE is enough above the legal speed limits where I drive that it is still irrelevant for me. I understand there are some places in the country where the speed limit can reach 85 mph, but that's going to suck the range out of the FFE (and is also an inefficient speed for pretty much any car).

 

[WattsUp]

I am amused that the FFE's speedometer goes up to 125mph when its limited to 85mph.

Well, if you brakes ever go out on a steep hill, leaving you with a "runaway" FFE, I suppose it might be useful to know your actual speed.

I think, obviously, the speed-o is just the same one used in other Foci (and other Ford models). No real need for a special one.

 

[NightHawk]

I am amused that the FFE's speedometer goes up to 125mph when its limited to 85mph.

Well, if you brakes ever go out on a steep hill, leaving you with a "runaway" FFE, I suppose it might be useful to know your actual speed.

thats an interesting thought - could an FFE go faster than the 85mph limit if it was going down a steep hill?
if you put a flux capacitor in an FFE to make a time machine, you would need to be able to reach 88mph!

 

[v_traveller]

thats an interesting thought - could an FFE go faster than the 85mph limit if it was going down a steep hill?

Yes, I've had the needle bounce off 90 on a downhill. I backed off right away, though, so I don't know if it will sustain that speed.

if you put a flux capacitor in an FFE to make a time machine, you would need to be able to reach 88mph!

If you let me borrow your flux capacitor, I'll dust off my Mr. Fusion and see what happens.