New Member Intro and Basic Question on Regenerative Braking

[cpwl]

Hello, all. I have just signed onto this site as part of my ongoing investigation into BEVs as I am considering one as a “second car” for commuting and “grocery getting” purposes. Heretofore I have had little interest in small fuel efficient cars due to being over 6ft tall and generally wanting to have extra volume capacity to carry bulky cargo on short notice and quite frankly enjoying the plush cabin comfort of larger vehicles and the smoother ride which is generally associated with heavier vehicles and their well-damped chassis/suspensions. My “daily” driver is a 2003 Ford Explorer and I also have a 1999 Ford E150 Chateau as the tow vehicle for my travel trailer and when I travel with the family dog pack. Before that an 84 Ford Aerostar treated me very well for about 7 years after a brief period of lust with a 94 Ford Probe GT, my previously smallest car. However the recent jump in gasoline prices and the seemingly endless and certainly monstrous repair bills I am getting on my ICEs have me reconsidering previously sacrosanct opinions. So I’ve been looking into BEVs for the last 6 months, no there is absolutely no interest in hybrids as to me they are an unacceptable compromise being neither a good ICE nor a good EV alternative. And the fact that I have paid-off ICEs for long distance travel essentially negates any inherent advantage a hybrid may otherwise have over a BEV.

After an extended period (4 months) of haranguing a local Hybrid and EV Certified Ford dealer about seeing a FFE I finally got to see and test drive one last night. Other than “bleeding Ford Blue when you cut me”, one of the reasons I am particularly interested in the FFE is the fact that it looks like a “real car” rather than a “technical statement geekmobile” or an otherwise “oddity car”. Remember that “I don’t do small cars” so everything about the FFE was going to be a new experience for me, from the chassis, through the cabin to the electric drive. Long story short I was very pleasantly surprised by all aspects of the car. The chassis is very refined and performed well over the range of pot-holed urban streets to decently surfaced semi-rural roads that were experienced on the approximately 15km dealer defined test drive circuit. While I wouldn’t want to be the person sitting behind me as I had to move the driver’s seat to it’s rearmost limit, the cabin was otherwise reasonably comfortable and large enough for me to feel that I could readily commute and complete over 95% of my routine urban travel requirements in this car. The electric drive was everything I had read and while not the most powerful car, it was certainly more than adequate for its purpose and market niche. In fact prudent driving and braking resulted in my only consuming 9 km of rated range during the almost 15 km test drive which included several 1-2 km long segments driven at up to 90km/hr and urban speeds of 50-60km/hr with a few “mandatory stomp-on-it” moments.

However one “quirk” appeared on the dashboard instrumentation which I am hoping someone can explain. During braking the left side dashboard display showed a rotating circular arrow over the battery capacity icon indicating regenerative braking was active as I had read and expected as regenerative braking is activated by pressing on the brake pedal. All well and good, however there were many times when just releasing the accelerator resulted in the regenerative braking display activating! According to everything I have read about the FFE this was not expected and does not correlate to regenerative braking being tied to the brake pedal activation. The salesman was unable to confirm if this was normal and if it did indeed accurately indicate that a minor level of regenerative braking was being invoked by releasing the accelerator. Can anyone advise what was really happening under these conditions. I would like to think that there was some level of regenerative braking occurring but that is totally contrary to all information I have found.

Thanks and Cheers

Carl

 

[scoops]

This is normal and is supposed to simulate the engine braking of an internal combustion engine. Did you try shifting the car into L during your test drive? That has an even higher rate of regenerative “braking” when you lift off the gas (like being in a lower gear.) I do wish the car had a mode where there would be no engine braking at all as the car really glides impressively well with just inertia (Lots of mass, good aerodynamics, low drivetrain loss from lack of gears, LRR tires) and there is energy loss as the car converts forward motion back to electrons. Ideally (looking for this in my next EV) there would be paddle shifters which would allow a selectable level of autoregen braking from zero to very heavy (equivilant to being in first or second gear all the time) I've read the BMW 1-series EV had strong enough lift-off regen to allow 1 peddle driving for everything but a complete stop.

 

[michael]

I would use slightly different words to describe the same thing....the little circle rotates any time you are coasting or braking. It indicates energy is being returned to the battery.

If you coast down a hill, you will recover charge. If you would put the car in neutral, you would coast but not recover any energy. There is some point of light throttle application that would result in no energy flow...more pedal and the motor draws power, lift and if the car is moving energy is recovered.

It works quite well.

And I agree, the FFE is almost indistinguishable from an everyday car except that drives past every gas station. Hope you decide on it.

 

[cpwl]

Thanks for the replies scoops and Michael. So there is in fact a low level of regenerative braking when releasing the accelerator which is a software simulation of engine retard braking and apparently in the low gear selection it is markedly more pronounced. I’ll have to try that if I can get another test drive! I was perplexed by the “low” gear selector option when I got into the car but “let-it-go” as our initial discussions about the car, especially charging, very quickly showed that I was at least as familiar with the car’s overall technical architecture as was the salesman – a case of little training and experience which seems to be common among legacy manufacturer salesman with the possible exception of Nissan due to the relative sales success of the Leaf. (In fact knowing about the upcoming US release of the Mercedes B-Class BEV, I inquired about its Canadian release at the local Mercedes dealer – Ottawa Ontario - from whom my wife bought two Smarts and our salesman didn’t even know such a BEV was being released by Mercedes so it seems early adopters/potential adopters are more familiar with the products than most of the salesmen.) My pre-test drive thoughts were that I would rather have all the regenerative braking tied to releasing the accelerator, the more one backed off the accelerator the stronger the regenerative braking effect. Scoops’ idea of having a selector to determine the level of regenerative braking activated on release of the accelerator is quite intriguing but that would require another switch as well as a software subroutine. But such a feature would also represent a pretty fundamental change from the common automatic-transmissioned ICE driving experience even if it could be selected or defeated by a software switch. Ford clearly wants the FFE driving experience to be as close to a conventional ICE Focus experience as possible, right down to including the software simulation of an automatic transmission creep. That actually bothered me, I don’t like creep in legitimate automatic transmissions and I was very disappointed that there was the creep function. As this is a software simulation hopefully later releases will provide an option to defeat this creep.

The only real disappointment with the FFE was the lack of a fast DC to DC recharging capability as one can get with the Nissan Leaf and of course the Tesla Model S, albeit a proprietary format. Granted the Level 3 charging network to do this is still very limited in North America but it would be nice to have this available for when the network does begin to fill out. But given the range capabilities and intended market for the FFE this is a compromise with which I can readily live.

I will look at the Nisan Leaf but honestly the “quirky” styling and lack of an active thermal battery management system have pretty much already ruled it out for me and the pricing for the middle trim level which would be the minimum in which I might be interested present no significant cost benefit and the highest level trim is more expensive than the FFE so ….. If the Mercedes B-Class BEV is released in Canada this summer I will certainly look at it but it appears that car will be a minimum of $7k more that the FFE so that becomes a huge issue. From what I have seen so far and what I anticipate, unless I can unexpectedly and magically suddenly afford a Tesla, the FFE is my choice.

Anyway, Thanks for the help and Cheers.

Carl

 

[unplugged]

Carl, you seem very well informed about your EV purchase. Although clearly not in the EV camp, Car & Driver had a very interesting comparison among current EVs a few months back. You might enjoy the read: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-chevy-spark-ev-vs-fiat-500e-ford-focus-electric-honda-fit-ev-nissan-leaf-smart-fortwo-ed-comparison-test

 

[EVA]

You are really well informed Carl. Frankly, if you've done much research on any car, you will likely know more about the car than salesmen.

I think Ford did a great job making the FFE feel and act like an ICE car. It makes it really easy for anybody to drive the car - it feels familiar right away. It is an outstanding car for around town and moderate commutes.

Not sure I think Ford should add more controls or options. If you look at what a mess MyFordTouch (or sync, or the touchscreen, or whatever the heck it is called) is, and the job they did integrating the electric functions, they would just end up making all those extra controls too complicated and hard to use.

There is a huge difference with Tesla - they had a clean sheet of paper to work with. Everything has a common look and feel, and the software is incredibly intuitive to use. They didn't have to integrate electric car function with all that extra baggage like Ford had to do.

The amount of regeneration and creep is personal - there isn't one size that fits all. I happen to own both an FFE and a Tesla- and drive them both a lot. I can't imagine having a car that doesn't creep - that no creep setting on the Tesla is completely counterintuitive to me (no I don't buy the argument, it's like driving a manual transmission they don't creep, why should an electric car creep). No creep makes for a horribly jerky ride, and, until there was a recent software update, the car would roll backwards down hill when you took your foot off the brake (yeah, just like a manual transmission, except there was no clutch to modulate the roll back).

Regen is strange. I personally think the FFE got the pedal feel exactly right - slight deceleration starting regen as you near the top of the accelerator travel, and regen kicking in harder as you apply the brakes. It mimics an automatic transmission well. The Tesla has a similar setting - except they didn't really do much with regen increasing as you apply the brakes (my front wheels get a lot of brake dust on them, the FFE gets almost no brake dust - evidence the brake pads are working hard on the Tesla and hardly working on the FFE). The other regen setting is called Standard and is very aggressive. It feels like you are aggressively downshifting a manual transmission. It does a great job of almost never using the brakes and returning a ton of electricity to the battery. It has taken me a long time to learn how to drive with that setting - it is best in stop and go traffic jams. It is not at all intuitive. And tends to jerk the car around a lot.

Carl - I hope you buy an FFE and are happy with the car.

 

[JOEFRIDAY]

"Charging - LEAF SV has DC quick charge available for extra $$$$ - slight advantage to LEAF"

Just a little point of order here. We have the 2012 LEAF with the DC quick charge port. We have had the car just over 2 years.

We have never used the quick charge port because there are no quick charge stations in our area. The nearest one, that I can find, is in Tennessee at the Nissan factory which is over 500 miles away! (according to Chargepoint). The Nissan dealers don't even have the quick charge stations.

I know there are some limited quick charge stations on the West Coast, but I have not found them anywhere else. At this point the quick charge point is nothing more than marketing for most of us. It does not serve any useful purpose. We have one more year left on the Nissan LEAF lease and I don't expect that we will ever be able to use the quick charge port on this vehicle.

As I stated on another post, we have both the Nissan LEAF and the Ford Focus Electric. They are both great cars and I would purchase either one again.

Joe

 

[cpwl]

All,


I’ve been on course all week so I haven’t had a chance to get back on the forum and post anything since last weekend. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences and for the kind words that I am becoming well informed about BEVs, notably the FFE.

@unplugged – I had previously seen the Car and Driver report you referenced but it was worth going back and re-reading it. Their biases come through as they and much of the motoring press seem to dismiss any BEV than cannot do everything that the average family ICE vehicle can. BEVs, even Teslas, are faced with some very inflexible technical, physical and chemical limitations that will take many years to overcome, some of which may never be economically solved. But that certainly doesn’t negate their value when used for their intended purposes and within their clearly defined and stated limitations. For the time being BEVs cater to a niche market of early technology adopters and those with very specific purchase criteria. Time and public awareness will help change that.

@EVA – Thanks for sharing some experiential wisdom on several aspects of BEVs about which I have specific questions and concerns. I found your comments about not having creep turned on in your Tesla resulting in a “… horribly jerky ride …” particularly challenging to some of my preconceived ideas. It would seem that some of the process control constants in the Tesla acceleration map are rather abrupt, perhaps driven more by the desire to provide the ultimate in performance rather than provide a more benign response. Given that this is all software based it would have been easy for Tesla to provide several user selectable acceleration maps. Ford however have neither the power potential nor the same target market for outright BEV performance in the FFE. I am also starting to rethink my position on wanting regenerative braking being based solely on accelerator release. After more consideration Ford`s approach to the FFE regenerative braking may be a better overall arrangement, certainly for an ``average`` drivers skill level. The rated miles used versus actual miles travelled which I experienced speak to how effective the FFEs overall regenerative braking approach is. I’ll have to arrange another test drive to experience regenerative braking when driving in the `low` gear selection. That may be the tipping point for my position on this. Again with Tesla starting with a `clean sheet of paper` they could have provided more user selectable maps for the regenerative braking or used brake pedal position as an additional control input for regenerative braking, somewhat analogous to what Ford have done with the FFE.

@cwstnsko and joefriday – Thanks for the FFE∕Leaf comparison and matrix. I expect that I will have a very similar results table after I have investigated and test driven a Leaf. Given the amount of time and money NISSAN expended on developing the Leaf it a bit surprising that the LEAF does not dominate user comparison matrices such as these but also speaks highly of what Ford has accomplished with the FFE It is really unfortunate that Ford only developed the FFE as a compliance product. If they were to exploit the lessons learned from the FFE and develop equally capable and Tesla range-competitive BEV versions of the Fusion and Lincoln MKZ with an ``honest`` marketing effort they could really begin to exploit a market which those of us here clearly feel is on the verge of massive expansion.


As you have each pointed out the FFE is a wonderful car that pre-eminently fulfills its design goals and the promises afforded by electric drive. It is an easy transition from a standard ICE so it has the potential to be a sales success if Ford were ever put a serious effort into marketing it. Granted the FFE does not do everything that an ICE does or even that a Tesla does, but it fulfills its roles and market niche very very well. I will test a Leaf and if they are released this summer a Mercedes B-Class BEV but I am already very strongly tilted towards the FFE. It would take one of the competition having an enormous advantage in a few areas to sway me to either of them. I’ll keep you updated as and when I progress this.

Thanks and Cheers

Carl

 

[michael]

I would say that Ford made an effort to make the FFE's drive almost indistinguishable from an ICE car, even to the extent of providing the creep at idle and the "low gear" deceleration. Ironically, the actual ICE Focus has a dual-clutch transmission that is actually in neutral when stopped....the car will roll backwards down even the slightest hill unless you apply brake. THAT takes some getting used to.

 

[EVA]

Michael - that roll back issue is gone. Ford had an update almost a year ago to fix that problem. The car will not roll backwards on a hill. Well, OK, it will after some amount of time - the hill hold is good for some limited amount of time.

When I bought our 2012 Focus Titanium it had the roll back problem. Ford issued a recall or TSB to have the programming redone and fixed the problem.

 

[jmueller065]

the car will roll backwards down even the slightest hill unless you apply brake.

There is a TSB for that: They reprogram the transmission control module to keep one of the clutches slightly engaged (we've had it done on our ICE Focus--it works about 90% of the time).

 

[michael]

Doesn't matter any more....ICE Focus replaced by FFE...big step up for less money.

But just as a matter of curiosity....The ICE Focus did have a hill-holder that worked fine (on hills greater than a few degrees, the brakes engaged to present rollback until the throttle was advanced and the transmission engaged. The troublesome issue was on nearly-level stops. Drivers accustomed to regular automatic transmissions expected a slight creep forward, but the car was in absolute neutral and might roll with the grade. That one took some getting used to. Are you saying they fixed that?

Thanks

 

[michael]

Update on regenerative braking....

Here are some very rough numbers, at least will give you an idea of what's going on...

at 60 MPH:

lift throttle in D, approximately 10 KW

lift throttle in L, approximately 30 KW

Apply brakes in D, approximately 50 KW

 

[jmueller065]

Drivers accustomed to regular automatic transmissions expected a slight creep forward, but the car was in absolute neutral and might roll with the grade. That one took some getting used to. Are you saying they fixed that?

Yes: Ours rarely rolls with the grade now, instead creeps forward a little. It does occasionally roll with the grade but not very often.

 

[michael]

Nice, that was a needed improvement

 

[michael]

Going back to the original question that started this thread (how does the FFE regenerative braking work? Does it happen on throttle-lift) I just learned something interesting about Tesla...

In Tesla cars, the ONLY regenerative braking is linked to throttle lift. The brake pedal actuates the friction brakes only and does not control regenerative braking. That's a surprise to me. I like our way better.