Anti_Climax
Well-known member
If a cell is misbehaving, don't be surprised if it abruptly gets worse.
2017 FFE Battery degradation
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Anti_Climax said:
Yep- it's not "sudden" but we just started getting a wrench "See Manual" with code P0BBE, "Hybrid/EV Battery Pack Voltage Variation"
The voltage variation sits around 0.31V at rest after driving a few miles. Funny since I wrote back on Sept 22 it was at 0.17V
I will call the dealer soon.
And it's at the dealer... we'll see what comes of it. I'd probably take the buyout if they offer one. Our needs have changed and there is something going on with the frontend still (seems steering related), kinda sick of dealing with it.
Update-
Dealer's playing dumb, sent me an invoice for $24,283.10 for the diagnostics plus battery replacement. The service advisor claimed he looked up & down for warranty info before sending this to me.
He also had the vehicle description wrong, listing my C-Max Energi instead of the Focus. After getting that right, I opened a case with Ford, who suggested the service advisor should talk to his local warranty rep from Ford.
edit: It looks like, in fact, I might be in the wrong; as it has 102K miles, and it's a ZEV not a PZEV, its warranty might have ended at 100K miles. It has 102855 right now. I guess I'll have to see what the dealer warranty rep has to say about it. I was under the impression BEVs were covered for 10yr/150K in CARB states, but that's only for PZEV, not ZEV (i.e. BEVs).
Dealer's playing dumb, sent me an invoice for $24,283.10 for the diagnostics plus battery replacement. The service advisor claimed he looked up & down for warranty info before sending this to me.
He also had the vehicle description wrong, listing my C-Max Energi instead of the Focus. After getting that right, I opened a case with Ford, who suggested the service advisor should talk to his local warranty rep from Ford.
edit: It looks like, in fact, I might be in the wrong; as it has 102K miles, and it's a ZEV not a PZEV, its warranty might have ended at 100K miles. It has 102855 right now. I guess I'll have to see what the dealer warranty rep has to say about it. I was under the impression BEVs were covered for 10yr/150K in CARB states, but that's only for PZEV, not ZEV (i.e. BEVs).
hoprocket said:
Yeah they haven't got back to me but it needs something front-end on top of this, I am not sure where to go from here. Probably ask them to diagnose the steering clunk (related to all this front-end stuff I've been looking at) and if it's not too much, fix that & drive it 'til the battery stops working.
Very sorry to hear of your warranty travails. If there isn't a business that services/rebuilds OEM batteries, there ought to be.
But here's my question following on this topic: does anyone know what is Ford's official definition of acceptable "degradation over time" as this phrase is used in their battery warranty language to limit their liability?
I have a 2017 Focus electric whose battery has lost somewhere around 20% of its capacity (give or take), so somewhere around 3% a year. It's well under the 100k mile limit. Does anyone have any experience with such borderline issues?
But here's my question following on this topic: does anyone know what is Ford's official definition of acceptable "degradation over time" as this phrase is used in their battery warranty language to limit their liability?
I have a 2017 Focus electric whose battery has lost somewhere around 20% of its capacity (give or take), so somewhere around 3% a year. It's well under the 100k mile limit. Does anyone have any experience with such borderline issues?
PlainTom said:
So it turns out there is!
https://www.greentecauto.com/hybrid-battery/ford/focus-ev/ford-focus-ev-battery-replacement-pack-2011-2018-2
$15K for the replacement battery, plus a core charge - but they will only warranty the replacement completely (**) if you use one of "their shops" to do it, where I assume the core is dealt with in the same visit.
My car just isn't worth $15K plus whatever install fees (fwiw, Ford's official invoice to me listed $1058 for their install cost) to have it swapped.
** - I thought the warranty was void entirely if you self-install, but it looks like the warranty still applies just minus installation faults etc. I would never dream of self-installing this anyhow and they won't warranty the battery if it sits around after delivery more than 30 days.
I have a 2017 with about 64k miles on it. I have probably used fast chargers about 25 times, sometimes for only 10 minutes to just get back home after forgetting to charge the night before. About 10% of charging has been 120 volt, about 10% from 3.3 kw charher and about 25% from 5 kw chargers. The rest has been 6.6 kw chargers. The number 1 thing is to "not" leave it plugged in all the time. I only charge it to 100% if I am going to use it the next day and don't charge it back up until down to 30-40% perhaps several days later. And I have only run it below 10% a handful of times and never to zero. I always make sure to plug in immediately when really low. These batteries do not like to be full or empty for any period of time. I still have ranges showing in the High 140's in the Summer and and the low 120's in the winter. I have done 120 miles with more than 10% remaining recently. Although I notice it being less, I bet not more than 10%. Unfortunately, there is no real way to be exactly sure what level they are at withoit just fully charging and then runing the heater until empty, something I never want to do. While driving it calculates all regen power as power returned, but does not account for losses. The more regenerative braking for a drive, the more skewed the data will be for kw's used. Some drives I seem to be running out at 25 kw used, and others can be closer to 28kw used. Also, outdoor temperature has a 10-15% difference.
My understanding of the battery warranty was not about degradation, but useable or not useable. If I suddenly dropped to 50% capacity, they could well deem it still useable and not cover it under warranty. I also think that there a few shops that will take the battery apart and replace just a bad cell if needed. This may cost a few thousand dollars, but better than some of the prices I have seen here. The nice thing is that in my calculations, the price I paid for the car after rebates will be 100% covered in the price difference between electricity and gas by 150k miles. Even if I throw the car away at that point, it would still have been effectively free.
My understanding of the battery warranty was not about degradation, but useable or not useable. If I suddenly dropped to 50% capacity, they could well deem it still useable and not cover it under warranty. I also think that there a few shops that will take the battery apart and replace just a bad cell if needed. This may cost a few thousand dollars, but better than some of the prices I have seen here. The nice thing is that in my calculations, the price I paid for the car after rebates will be 100% covered in the price difference between electricity and gas by 150k miles. Even if I throw the car away at that point, it would still have been effectively free.
I have a 2017 with 73,000 miles on it. At 68,000 miles, Forscan read the battery as having 25.8 kWh capacity. There's definitely been some degradation, but it hasn't impaired our use of the vehicle, except for winter when I have to be cautious with speed and heat use on some drives. I plan to get rid of the car within the next 12 months, as the warranty will expire in March of 2025. It's a shame that there is no cost effective option for keeping the car on the road with battery replacement. It's been a very reliable commuter vehicle in the 3 years I've had it. I can't really be upset with Ford, as it is a low volume compliance vehicle and they could not possibly make any money on it with the lack of economies of scale in production of these batteries.
Anti_Climax
Well-known member
This has not been my experience. I run a scan gauge and can see the raw kWh to empty as I drive. This value and the kWh logged for a trip will both count backwards during regen, but specifically by the amount that was actually recaptured into the battery.
wind_driven
Member
We have a 2017 Electric Ford Focus with 51,050 miles on it. Did a full run down through driving & using the heat (til the car said it was shutting off) and got 27.3 kWh. We bought the car new (in late 2017), and have been the only owners.
It is what passes for winter here
so we got 79.8 miles on that particular full charge (used heater & heated seats, so that accounts for some battery usage).
This car is used for daily commuting for the most part, 40ish miles round trip. We have a Level 2 charger in our garage, so our usual thing is to plug the car in when we get home, it charges fully, and is ready to go the next morning. We leave it plugged in for much (but not all) of the time it is in the garage. I know, I know, there are arguments against leaving them plugged in, or against always topping the battery off, but it's what we have been doing for 5 years, it works for us, and we are still happy with our range (compared to new).
I have no idea what we will do when the Warranty Clock begins to tick loudly!
It is what passes for winter here
so we got 79.8 miles on that particular full charge (used heater & heated seats, so that accounts for some battery usage).This car is used for daily commuting for the most part, 40ish miles round trip. We have a Level 2 charger in our garage, so our usual thing is to plug the car in when we get home, it charges fully, and is ready to go the next morning. We leave it plugged in for much (but not all) of the time it is in the garage. I know, I know, there are arguments against leaving them plugged in, or against always topping the battery off, but it's what we have been doing for 5 years, it works for us, and we are still happy with our range (compared to new).
I have no idea what we will do when the Warranty Clock begins to tick loudly!
Wind_driven: useful info and opinion ... thanks!
My impression from the the still limited use we've made of our 2017 FFE (bought used in October) is that using the heater and defroster were pretty meaningful energy drags. This is only partially reflected in the drop in estimated range when the heater is turned on.
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has the hard data on the power draw of the heating element and of the fan.
Happy electric motoring everyone!!
My impression from the the still limited use we've made of our 2017 FFE (bought used in October) is that using the heater and defroster were pretty meaningful energy drags. This is only partially reflected in the drop in estimated range when the heater is turned on.
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has the hard data on the power draw of the heating element and of the fan.
Happy electric motoring everyone!!
wind_driven
Member
Our experience, too. Heater & defroster are noticeable energy draws. We tend to use the heated seats if reasonable, seems like less of an energy draw. Interestingly (and we’re in a very hot & humid summers area) the A/C (on full chilly blast!) does not seem to give nearly the energy hit as heating the car. No hard data here, sorry, just 5 years of constant use. There is a dash (left side) gauge that shows energy draw in some bar graphs, you can see the hit as you turn on the heat.
There are buffers on the top and bottom charge levels to protect the battery, so when the gauge indicates full the battery really isn't full. Same on the bottom, as full discharge will destroy the battery. Your routine is pretty much the same as mine. The packs get the job done as long as no single cell failsz which has actually happened to some owners.
Anti_Climax
Well-known member
Top is 95% and bottom is 8.35% on the larger battery.
Didn't know for a long time that there is a view on the left screen that can show you the climate and accessory draws. I'd suggest setting it to MyView and looking through the options.
My particular view has a climate bar, and accessory bar, a Wh/mi that shows the "instantaneous" value as a moving line, the trip average as an outside marker and the value being used to estimate range (or the target value needed for the active nav destination) as a highlighted "cup" at the bottom of that gauge, along with the normal SoC gauge with the mile estimate.
From that, the heater can run above 5kW but it will eventually scale down. Accessory won't give you just the fan, but the overall draw is about 1kW for all the basic stuff. The battery heater can add close to another kW but it only runs when the battery is under 40F and the coolant loop hasn't warmed up running through the motor.
From personal experience, running heat/seats fully still allows VERY slow charging at 7kW and running with no heat/cooling allows VERY slow charging on 120V, which fits with the view info.
Didn't know for a long time that there is a view on the left screen that can show you the climate and accessory draws. I'd suggest setting it to MyView and looking through the options.
My particular view has a climate bar, and accessory bar, a Wh/mi that shows the "instantaneous" value as a moving line, the trip average as an outside marker and the value being used to estimate range (or the target value needed for the active nav destination) as a highlighted "cup" at the bottom of that gauge, along with the normal SoC gauge with the mile estimate.
From that, the heater can run above 5kW but it will eventually scale down. Accessory won't give you just the fan, but the overall draw is about 1kW for all the basic stuff. The battery heater can add close to another kW but it only runs when the battery is under 40F and the coolant loop hasn't warmed up running through the motor.
From personal experience, running heat/seats fully still allows VERY slow charging at 7kW and running with no heat/cooling allows VERY slow charging on 120V, which fits with the view info.
honkon
New member
I have the exact same problem with Cell #25!!
