System Off to Preserve Battery

[WattsUp]

Has anyone learned any more info on this issue, is there a complete known solution yet?

Perhaps your 12V battery is actually in bad condition and needs to be replaced?

 

[NightHawk]

Perhaps your 12V battery is actually in bad condition and needs to be replaced?

I'm testing that right now.
Luckily I bought a few months ago a Premium Sears auto battery charger that shows the battery charge in % along with voltage and I am testing charging it up with that.
The FFE's 12v battery was discharged down to only 6% left according the Sears charger, with a fast 12A charge in 2 hours it got it fully charged.
So I will monitor the 12v battery over the next week or two and see if it discharges too fast even if I don't drive the car for a few days.
Its either the battery itself has a fast self-discharge rate (faulty battery) or the car is discharging it excessively in OFF mode either when the 120v charging cable is connected or otherwise.
I should be able to tell which side the fault is on in a week or two.

I know this until this issue is completely resolved, I'm carrying my emergency 12v battery jumper kit with me in the FFE!

 

[NightHawk]

I've never heard of a situation where the 12v battery was low enough to prevent the car from going to ready mode, but with enough juice for acc mode. As far as I know, if there is enough battery to get you to acc, there is enough to drive the car. Are you sure that you didn't just experience the common brake pedal, start button mis-timing that results in the car turned on, but not in ready mode? From this state you just put the car back in Park, foot on the brake and press the start button again. This happens to many of us every once in a while....

The 12v battery was apparently right at the threshold and was low enough that when I pushed the start button the display showed the "System Off to Preserve Battery" message and in that state won't allow you to get into the Ready to Drive mode. But leaving it in ACC mode allowed the 12V battery to charge for a little while, though that times out and goes into OFF mode after a while so its not useful to get a good long 12v battery charge. But a couple hours later I could get into Ready to Drive mode.

However even then the 12v battery voltage was lower than it should be so I decided to do a full charge with my external 12v Sears battery charger.

Ford should have designed a way so when you have the charging cable plugged in that it would charge/maintain the 12v battery as well as the HV battery. Since if you don't drive the car for days or weeks the 12v battery could self discharge just like with an old gas vehicle sitting in a garage for a month.

I could see the FFEs sitting on the dealer's lot for a few months even if they charge the HV battery could have their 12v batteries drained significantly without their knowing! Maybe thats what happened and my FFE's battery was just barely charged enough to work when I got it. We shall see now that I'm giving my 12v battery a FULL charge with my external Sears battery charger. Might have to do that once a month or so if I don't drive it enough to keep it charged via the car's internal 12v charging.

 

[NightHawk]

My main questions on this issue however is what have some dealers have done to a FFE to successfully deal with this issue?
One earlier post in this thread indicated a dealer's Ford service was able to "program" the car to fix it. I'd like some details on that so my dealer's service guys could find out exactly how to do it if its a permanent fix, aside from a faulty battery.

 

[NightHawk]

We just had our second 12V battery fail that was resolved with a jump start. Root cause seems to be the same as what others have reported: leaving the car plugged in for 36 hours or more without driving it. Called the dealer and I'm taking it in tomorrow - they claim there is a "reprogram" that should resolve this. Surprising as I've seen nobody else on this forum mentioning such a fix.

Did your dealer ever do this "reprogram" procedure on your FFE and was it successful as a permanent fix for this issue?
I found a couple other threads here related to this same issue in the past, one recommendation was to refer the dealer's service techs to a Ford Technical Service Bulletin "TSB-13-9-19" that reportedly fixes this issue.

Do you have any further details on this procedure that could be passed on to other Ford Dealers so they could do the same fix?

 

[EVA]

You might be taking about me NightHawk? This post was a few up in the other thread where you are looking for answers to the same question:

JFS - Can't say you are having the exact same problem I did. On the surface there is a similarity - the 12V battery in my car died twice. It happened when I had the car plugged into 110V for two days fully charged. There was something wrong with the programming. My dealer applied a TSB 13-9-19 - discussed in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1421&p=6922#p6922
I printed a copy of the bulletin for my dealer on the second trip in. The car is fine now. The first time they got the car, they checked the battery after jumping it, left the car in the lot for 2 days (unplugged) and the car started fine. Logically and normal, they figured I left something on in the car and everything was fine with the car. I got it home, plugged it in, and didn't drive it for 2 days, the 12V battery was dead. That's when I took in the TSB.

The car was fixed with this TSB - the 12V battery has never died since. I have no idea if you are having the same problem.

 

[NightHawk]

You might be taking about me NightHawk? This post was a few up in the other thread where you are looking for answers to the same question:

JFS - Can't say you are having the exact same problem I did. On the surface there is a similarity - the 12V battery in my car died twice. It happened when I had the car plugged into 110V for two days fully charged. There was something wrong with the programming. My dealer applied a TSB 13-9-19 - discussed in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1421&p=6922#p6922
I printed a copy of the bulletin for my dealer on the second trip in. The car is fine now. The first time they got the car, they checked the battery after jumping it, left the car in the lot for 2 days (unplugged) and the car started fine. Logically and normal, they figured I left something on in the car and everything was fine with the car. I got it home, plugged it in, and didn't drive it for 2 days, the 12V battery was dead. That's when I took in the TSB.

The car was fixed with this TSB - the 12V battery has never died since. I have no idea if you are having the same problem.

That sounds very similar, I too had the car plugged into the 110V charger a lot the past several days but haven't driven the car since Wed night. Thursday overnight it fully charged the battery and so it was plugged fully charged quite a bit after that. Mon afternoon I got the low 12v battery notification. Indeed it was very low and I had to fully charge it last night with my external battery charger. I'll test and see if it holds a charge for a day or two without plugging the 110v charger in - but I've read there is a small load on the 12v battery even in OFF mode and no charger plugged in? How many days should the battery last in that condition and still be acceptable level to not be called a faulty battery?

So after the TSB fix, you could leave the charger plugged into the car for days with full HV battery and have no significant 12v battery discharge? If so that would indicated the TSB fix must stop the excessive load on the 12v battery in that state - which it sounds like is about 1amp or more if it discharges the battery within 48hrs.

How long did it take the dealer to do the listed TSB procedure? Was it relatively simple and do they need any special parts or equipment to order? Could it be done quickly where I could take it in and home the same day?

 

[jmueller065]

Have you tried programming in a go time with the HVAC off for the one or two days while the car is plugged in and not going anywhere?
A "go" time will "start" the car for a good 20 minutes (since you won't be driving it away you can leave the HVAC off). This should give the 12V battery a short charge to keep it topped off.

 

[GladeStorm]

Generally, that TSB was applied to any car taken in for the SSN recall so I'd be surprised if that's your issue. The TSB specifies .5hr, which is probably the minimum time allotment.

 

[NightHawk]

I found this list of TSBs for the 2014 Ford Focus:
http://www.fordproblems.com/tsbs/Focus/2014/

The TSB-13-9-19 indicates "low state of charge of 12v battery" for one of the things it fixes:

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:BATTERY
Date Reported SEPTEMBER 23 2013
NHTSA Reference #10054341
TSB Reference #TSB-13-9-19

Description: FORD: SOME VEHICLES MAY EXPERIENCE ILLUMINATION OF ABS WARNING LAMP, MESSAGE DISPLAY OF STOP SAFELY NOW, RED TRIANGLE WARNING LAMP OR ILLUMINATION OF WRENCH LAMP WITH MULTIPLE DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES (DTCS) AND LOW STATE OF CHARGE OF 12 V

 

[NightHawk]

I'm monitoring my FFE's 12v battery condition for the next several days to see how well it holds a charge.
I charged the 12v battery fully to 100% late last night with my external Sears Premium battery charger (12a fast charge).
After 12 hours with the FFE in OFF mode (no lights or accessories on) and no charger plugged in (HV battery at 98%) the 12 battery is holding at 12.9 - 13.0V; that seems to be a good nominal charged voltage since my old Toyota ICE pickup's battery is also reading at 12.9V after driving it yesterday. When the car got the 12v battery low notification (also listed in the MyFord Mobile log at that time) the 12v battery voltage was down to below 11.5V, so as long as the battery stays above 12.0V it should have no problem getting into ready to drive mode where it should be charging the battery at full rate.

I just put the car in ACC mode and the voltage measured slightly higher, 13.4V; so the car shouldn't be discharging the 12V battery in this mode even with headlights, etc turned on the voltage stayed up there.

I put the car in ready to drive mode and the voltage went up to 14.5V+; clearly that should be charging the 12v battery.

I don't need to drive the car until tomorrow late afternoon, so I'll see if the 12v battery charge holds until then with the car in OFF mode and no charger plugged in, that will be about 40 hours since the full charge. Then I'll check the battery after the 50 mile roundtrip on Wed evening. After that I'll monitor it thru the weekend after charging the HV battery and unplugging the charger when the HV reaches 100%. If it holds the charger thru all that, then I'll test with keeping the charger plugged in when the HV is at or near full charge - that may be when the 12v battery discharges and the TSB fix may resolve that if that is the confirmed issue, as opposed to a faulty battery.

I have found several other internet sites that comment on this issue of 12v battery discharging if the car hasn't been driven for several days, not just the FFE but Ford's Energy models as well. In one case someone was stranded away from home with their FFE's 12v battery dead (in that case due to not putting the car in Park) and they were not even able to operate the power door locks or lights! They had a flashlight in the rear hatch area, but couldn't open that up with the battery dead. However I tried on mine and in such an emergency you can manually open the driver side door with the mechanical key hidden in the remote control key then you can climb into the back seat and pull down one side of the back seats and then reach into the rear hatch area which is where I am keeping an emergency 12v battery jumper that has its own small 12v battery I charge up once a month with its own 110v plug in cord. So I am prepared if I do get a 12v battery low error away from home I think. But so far its only happened in my garage at home, which makes sense if it only happens if the car hasn't been driven for a few days which would only be after its at home.

 

[studio460]

I have to assume the car is drawing some amount of current while plugged in, possibly the power management control unit. Also, the car must be using some power to transmit data via the GPS antenna. As someone mentioned, the 12V battery isn't charged via the charging port; it's charged by the high-voltage battery, and only when the car is "running" (much like an alternator charges the battery in an ICE vehicle), so the 12V battery presumably is only actively charged when the car is "on."

My question is, will all FFEs revert to this "fault" condition? I mean, is it a design limitation or a defect (i.e., only some cars are affected). Or, does it in fact affect all FFEs, but since such conditions are rare (i.e., few people leave their cars plugged in for multiple days), only a handful of people are reporting a problem. If someone can refute this last possibility, that eliminates one potential scenario. If the above assumptions are correct, the "fix" would be to un-plug the car each 24-hour period, turn the car "on" for a period of time (to re-charge the 12V battery), then re-connect the charging port.

 

[hybridbear]

I have to assume the car is drawing some amount of current while plugged in, possibly the power management control unit. As someone mentioned, the 12V battery isn't charged via the charging port; it's charged by the high-voltage battery, and only when the car is "running" (much like an alternator charges the battery in an ICE vehicle), so the 12V battery presumably is only actively charged when the car is 'on."

My question is, will all FFEs revert to this "fault" condition? I mean, is it a design limitation or a defect (i.e., only some cars are affected). If the above assumptions are correct, the "fix" would be to un-plug the car each 24-hour period, turn the car "on" for a period of time (to re-charge the 12V battery), then re-connect the charging port.

The 12V battery is charged when the car is plugged in to your EVSE. However, it appears that once the car stops charging the 12V it doesn't begin to charge it again. This means that if the car sits plugged in for a long time the 12V could discharge. Specific cars with 12V issues usually have some sort of electrical problem which causes a short. Many of the Fusion vehicles with an issue have had bad keypads. Some of the C-Maxes have been found to have wire chafing which has led to a short.

 

[studio460]

Yes, I remembered your post incorrectly. Thanks for that correction!

 

[NightHawk]

My question is, will all FFEs revert to this "fault" condition? I mean, is it a design limitation or a defect (i.e., only some cars are affected). Or, does it in fact affect all FFEs, but since such conditions are rare (i.e., few people leave their cars plugged in for multiple days), only a handful of people are reporting a problem. If someone can refute this last possibility, that eliminates one potential scenario. If the above assumptions are correct, the "fix" would be to un-plug the car each 24-hour period, turn the car "on" for a period of time (to re-charge the 12V battery), then re-connect the charging port.

Yeah I believe the 12v battery discharge problem is only noticed if the car is not driven for several days straight and perhaps left plugged into the charger during that time, like over a long weekend.
If you drive the car every day for a significant distance you will charge up the 12v battery daily and not have to worry.
I can put the car in "ready to drive" mode in the garage and it must be charging the 12v battery in that mode because the battery voltage goes up to 14.5V+; but I think the car will timeout and go back to OFF mode after a few minutes of no activity so that won't help charge the battery for a longer period like driving it would.

It would be better if Ford did a better slow constant maintenance trickle charge on the 12v battery anytime the charger is plugged in, whether the HV battery is charging or not. That would be even better than leaving the card unplugged for weeks if needed, like using one of those solar powered car battery maintainers.

Since I have a good Sears Premium external auto battery charger, I will just have to measure the 12v battery regularly after not driving the car for 2+ days and if its getting down to 12.0V or less, put it on the external charger. I will also try to leave the car unplugged after fully charging the HV battery and not letting it stay plugged in unless the HV battery needs charging.

I'm not clear if the recommended TSB fix at the dealer might change with regard to the car's actions when the charger port is plugged in and 12v battery drain. If it fixed it like I would want (do a slow trickle maintenance charger on the 12v battery) always while the charger port was plugged in that would be worth it, or even if it just prevented extra 12v battery drain while the charger is plugged in that seems to be happening?

I've ordered this nifty 12v accessory port gadget from amazon today to easily monitor the 12v battery voltage inside the car without lifting the hood or using a regular multimeter. Then I'll know if I'm ok each day and if I need to do an external 12v battery charge if its ever getting down too far:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0092KVYGI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[jmueller065]

Perhaps the issue is also related to Level 1 vs Level 2 charging: I've left my car for over a week plugged into our Level 2 and never had an issue with the 12V battery going dead.

In some cases I left it with a couple of go times set to power up the car and top-off the 12V battery, in others I didn't program any go times.

 

[NightHawk]

In past posts in this and similar threads on this issue, it seemed to be a problem both with L1 and L2 charging.
But I'm going to run my own tests in the coming weeks anyway.
I only have the L1 charging for now, but I just received my order from Home Depot today for their on sale 240V,30A L2 Schneider EVSE and I'm getting quotes from local electricians now for installation in the near future hopefully.

 

[EVA]

Nighthawk - sorry for not quoting your question way up a page.

Yes the TSB fixed the problem completely. Never had another dead 12V battery problem. My dealer even replaced the battery for me (it had gone completely flat 3 times, so I wanted a new one, they were kind and replaced it).

My dealer kept the car for a half day. I would guess you might be able to wait for the car.

If it were me, I'd quit monitoring the problem and just take the car in. On the other hand, I happen to really like my dealer and their shop.

That isn't necessarily true that the SSN fix and that TSB are both applied when you had the recall done. The SSN fix did not include that TSB fix.

 

[NightHawk]

Yes the TSB fixed the problem completely. Never had another dead 12V battery problem. My dealer even replaced the battery for me (it had gone completely flat 3 times, so I wanted a new one, they were kind and replaced it).

My dealer kept the car for a half day. I would guess you might be able to wait for the car.

Thanks very much for those details.
Does the dealer service techs require anything special to order to perform this TSB fix (parts, equipment, etc)?
Or should I be able to make a service appointment for say just before noon and they should be able to have it done before the end of the day?

Since my battery was only down once so far now that I'm monitoring it to prevent that again, it seems to hold a charge fine so far, its still near 100% charge sitting in the car for about 18 hours since I did the full charge. So I don't think I need a replacement battery, thats what I'm mainly testing for first. I'm also trying to see if it only drains the battery when the charger is plugged while the HV battery is near full and not just sitting unplugged in the OFF state. I should be able to be sure in a few days and I'd prefer wait until next week for any service appt anyway.

 

[EVA]

No they didn't have to order anything. All they do is hook up the computer and send the fix over.