Report of FFE vs Leaf in cold weather

[michael]

I came across this thread

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11572

on another forum. The person who wrote it apparently owns both an FFE and a Leaf, and he compared the range in cold weather. As you may guess, this caused some discussion on their board. I think it's interesting reading for those of us looking at the upcoming winter season

 

[v_traveller]

Thanks Michael!

It's interesting how parts of this discussion, along with recent reports on Tesla fires, have uncovered potential virtues of the FFE's battery placement. To me, losing luggage space I don't use is worth the protection from road debris and exposure to extreme temperatures.

 

[jmueller065]

What is interesting to me about that discussion is the Leaf owners attempting to pick apart the "test" in order to disprove the FFE's advantage in cold weather.

 

[dmen]

As far as the winter range comparison, a true range test to empty would be ideal but it does seem the FFE beats leaf here. Well, now I understand why I'm seeing so many more leafs plugged in at public chargers lately. I think Ford has done as good or better than any other maker in addressing cold weather with a relatively small battery. Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that the FFE winter range is still pretty limiting. I guess it's bad vs worse. I'd like to think dealers inform their customers of this, but the frequent noob posts asking why their displays show numbers in the 50s instead of 70s makes me think otherwise.

I agree with v on the trade off on trunk volume for batteries less exposed to temp
extremes and physical damage. I think the issue of trunk space is really overblown. Most reviewers don't seem to realize the organizer box comes right out and frees up plenty of space, or that the trunk volume is more than the volt and the same as the original Leaf. I can travel comfortably with a family of 4 and a weekend's worth of food and luggage just fine, and a week's groceries fit easily. When I need to lug more stuff I usually also need to go further than 70 miles so it just isn't an issue.

One scary thought though is that the model S clearly has isolated the batteries from the passenger compartment whereas the FFE pretty clearly has not. While they presumably won't ignite from a debris puncture in their location, if they do ignite for some reason it'd be a much scarier situation for the passengers!

 

[nuuk1]

But lets be honest how different is fear of fire in the car than say carrying 15 gallons if gas right under you?
EV cars are relatively new and therefor us new buyers are showing how EV's are more beneficial than gas cars.
No more purchasing gas, lots of savings.
Better ride in the car.
Cleaner ride.
No pollution, no noise pollution either.
Practically no maintenance.
More fun to drive.
etc...

 

[EVA]

Pretty sure the location of the second battery under the seat is about where the ICE focus has the gas tank. The first battery inside the car is really well protected from puncture.

So the key question, would you rather have a fuel tank puncture or a battery enclosure? I'm pretty sure when gasoline starts flowing out of the tank it catches on fire. I don't think you have a lot of time to get away from that fire. I think when a battery gets punctured it takes a while to generate enough heat to catch on fire - a much slower burn.

Let's see, battery catching on fire or an explosive catching on fire - which would I want?

The Tesla situation is really different from the FFE or other electrics for that matter. The FFE is a standard height from the ground, just like any other Focus. The Tesla actually lowers automatically when it reaches highway speeds. The lowering is significant. Debris has a much higher chance of puncturing the floor with the car that low. The FFE would just drive over the debris and never touch it.

 

[Fluke]

If the Leaf has lower range than the FFE in cold weather, then it would probably not have worked for my driving patterns and the weather conditions in KC. This morning with a temperature in the teens, my FFE used 30% of the battery capacity to get to work (~13 miles). The car was fully charged last night, but was not able to be plugged in overnight due to some garage renovations and I had to use the defroster to clear the windscreen. After defrost, no heat was used for the rest of the trip.

With the cooler weather, I've regularly been using 50% or more of the battery capacity to do my commute of 26 miles. This with the car normally plugged in and garaged overnight. The myfordmobile phone app only works occasionally since the last update, so I have not been preconditioning.

 

[jmueller065]

With the cooler weather, I've regularly been using 50% or more of the battery capacity to do my commute of 26 miles. This with the car normally plugged in and garaged overnight. The myfordmobile phone app only works occasionally since the last update, so I have not been preconditioning.

So far my round trip commute of 32 miles has not yet consumed more than 50% of the battery. I have been preconditioning in the morning though. Even this morning, when it was in the teens with some snow on the ground, I still only used 25% of the battery (my commute in is uphill and frequently uses 1-3% more battery than the return home).
My car is not garaged and remains outside 24/7 but is plugged into a Level 2 overnight.

 

[dmen]

Sorry to stray off the thread's topic, but...

Pretty sure the location of the second battery under the seat is about where the ICE focus has the gas tank. The first battery inside the car is really well protected from puncture.

So the key question, would you rather have a fuel tank puncture or a battery enclosure? I'm pretty sure when gasoline starts flowing out of the tank it catches on fire. I don't think you have a lot of time to get away from that fire. I think when a battery gets punctured it takes a while to generate enough heat to catch on fire - a much slower burn.

Let's see, battery catching on fire or an explosive catching on fire - which would I want?

The Tesla situation is really different from the FFE or other electrics for that matter. The FFE is a standard height from the ground, just like any other Focus. The Tesla actually lowers automatically when it reaches highway speeds. The lowering is significant. Debris has a much higher chance of puncturing the floor with the car that low. The FFE would just drive over the debris and never touch it.

Yeah, I said I do not think FFE battery is at risk of PUNCTURE. I just said if it ignited for some other reason, it would be a different safety situation than Model S, with the trunk battery physically inside the passenger compartment. I'm thinking about the Boeing batteries catching fire, and the Mitsubishi PHEV batteries overheating- neither involved puncture. Sure, different chemistry, whatever. I wouldn't have bought the car if I thought it was an issue. I'm not trying to be alarmist, I'm just admitting a fleeting thought that has come up once or twice as I strap the kids into their seats right in front of that big battery hump. From those little Model S fire videos, I don't see anything I'd call a "slow burn".

 

[jmueller065]

From those little Model S fire videos, I don't see anything I'd call a "slow burn".

Ah but you're forgetting the fact that the videos show the fire at its peak. Nobody started to video the car from the beginning thinking "hey this is going to catch on fire so I'm going to get the whole thing".

In all of the Model S instances the worst part of the fire came tens of minutes after the car indicated to them (er for lack of a better term): SSN! The owners were able to exit the car safely--and retrieve some of their stuff from inside the car before anything nasty happened.

 

[WattsUp]

From those little Model S fire videos, I don't see anything I'd call a "slow burn".

Ah but you're forgetting the fact that the videos show the fire at its peak. Nobody started to video the car from the beginning thinking "hey this is going to catch on fire so I'm going to get the whole thing".

In all of the Model S instances the worst part of the fire came tens of minutes after the car indicated to them (er for lack of a better term): SSN! The owners were able to exit the car safely--and retrieve some of their stuff from inside the car before anything nasty happened.

Exactly.

With an ICE vehicle, all it takes is a gasoline leak and a flame source, or even a spark from a malfunctioning electric system, and *poof* -- the car instantly goes up in flames. Uncontrolled, sudden, hard to predict.

With an EV, I imagine (at least with a Tesla) it goes something like this... first, there's a warning from the car that something is wrong, then maybe some smoke from underneath, then maybe some more smoke, then maybe a hint of flame from underneath, then more flames, building to the final fire.

Now I'm not saying you'd want to sit in the car and check your emails while this happens, but it seems you would have somewhat more time, somewhat more predictability... this is what EVA likely meant by "slow burn".