Nissan Leaf vs Ford Focus Electric

[Rogerschro]

When people criticize because it's a compliance car, I don't understand the logic. Each compliance car is an EV on the road in place of the equivalent ICE. GOOD!!!

The 'compliance' car line gets me too. After all, it used to be the small 'high milage' ICE cars were the compliance car! The only reason Ford, GM or Chrysler built small cars was for 'compliance' after all, Right? LOL! But now they are the norm.

 

[WetEV]

The FFE is heavier, and more powerful, with a slightly smaller battery (23KW vs 24kW) yet its EPA range rating is slightly longer. But maybe its regen is more efficient, or the battery temp management improves efficiency and thus range?

EPA rated range doesn't have any variation from battery temperature management. The only way it could, in the current test, is to reduce the range if thermal management turned on during the test.

The main difference in range seems to be the lower frontal area of the FFE and to a lesser extent the better aerodynamic drag coefficient of the FFE. This improves extend freeway range of the FFE relative to the Leaf. My experience is that at slower speeds and hilly, the Leaf does very slightly better.

Seems to me that since these are the only two real BEV options on the market that one can buy right off a dealership, that someone would have done a test to see who the range king is...

Also Smart EV and BMW i3. Plus some compliance only cars.

Or if anyone if you have driven both, I would love to hear your reasons as to why you chose the FFE.

I have driven both, quite a bit, and bought a Leaf. However, I can see some real reasons to buy the FFE. A short list:

1) Battery pack thermal management, if you live someplace hot or cold or both. (I live near Seattle, cool and rainy a lot, ideal for any EV)
2) Freeway mostly driving. The FFE is much nicer on the freeway. (I drive more off freeway)
3) FFE has better instrument package.

Reasons why I bought a Leaf:

1) Stop Safely Now issue. It seems to have been resolved now.
2) Inside space and headroom.
3) DCQC
4) Charge location door placement.

 

[WattsUp]

4) Charge location door placement.

Hope your charging door doesn't get wedged shut if you have a minor front fender-bender.

I like the FFE charging door placement... up and out of the way of most fender benders.

 

[WattsUp]

1) Battery pack thermal management, if you live someplace hot or cold or both. (I live near Seattle, cool and rainy a lot, ideal for any EV)

I strongly believe the temperature management will help pack longevity in any climate. After nearly two years with my FFE, I have noticed no degradation in range.

I'm not sure this is the case for most Leaf owners, where battery degradation is obsessed over in the forums and begins to be noticeable for most owners within a year or two. There is a curious absence of battery degradation obsession in the FFE forums.

I think the temperature management is actually a huge advantage the FFE has over the Leaf.

 

[hybridbear]

4) Charge location door placement.

Hope your charging door doesn't get wedged shut if you have a minor front fender-bender.

I like the FFE charging door placement... up and out of the way of most fender benders.

Has anyone reported having this happen on the Leaf? Is this a frequent problem for Leaf owners like battery degradation is? I have not heard about this being an issue in reality, but rather just a perceived issue.

 

[WattsUp]

Hope your charging door doesn't get wedged shut if you have a minor front fender-bender. ...

Has anyone reported having this happen on the Leaf? ... I have not heard about this being an issue in reality, but rather just a perceived issue.

Just saying, given a choice, the FFE's out of the way location makes more sense to me.

 

[WetEV]

4) Charge location door placement.

Hope your charging door doesn't get wedged shut if you have a minor front fender-bender.

I like the FFE charging door placement... up and out of the way of most fender benders.

Has anyone reported having this happen on the Leaf? Is this a frequent problem for Leaf owners like battery degradation is? I have not heard about this being an issue in reality, but rather just a perceived issue.

My first Leaf was hit from behind (hard) while stopped on the freeway, and hit the car in front of me, which hit the car in front of that. Front end of the Leaf was bent up, but the charge door worked just fine. Front end repair estimate was ~5k, back end repair estimate was ~10k). Car was totaled by insurance, but the charge door worked just fine.

I've seen several Leafs that been in accidents, and have not seen or heard of any Leafs with charge door problems.

Front end port is both more weather tight and more convenient. I don't like the location of the FFE charge port, gets in my way in my garage, and I don't like the cover to the charge port on the FFE.

I strongly believe the temperature management will help pack longevity in any climate. After nearly two years with my FFE, I have noticed no degradation in range.

A battery thermal management system can't improve pack longevity if it never turns on. What temperature does the FFE TMS turn on at, on the high side? Yes, I've seen the message of "It's hot, please plug me in" for FFE on warmer days, but I don't know the actual temperature range of the FFE TMS.

My typical battery temperature in the summer is in the 60F to 70F range. I've never seen a battery temperature above about 85F in my Leaf.

What battery temperature does the FFE TMS turn on to cool at? And what temperature does it cool to? If the TMS never cools the pack, how would it improve pack longevity?

Actually, it is worse than that. The Leaf battery is cooled by airflow, the FFE has more insulation around the battery pack and is more cooled by the TMS. Charging and driving will both increase the temperature of the FFE battery pack in an isolated box until the TMS turn on. So the average temperature of the TMS system is likely to be higher than the airflow cooled battery, at least in cool climate places.

In warmer places, of course the TMS will improve battery life at the cost of higher energy usage. In cool places, no improvement, and might even make it very slightly worse.

Battery life model on the Leaf Wiki suggests well over a 10 year life in my climate. I'm ok with that. I can see why someone in AZ or hot areas of CA might not be as happy with the Leaf, and would rather have an FFE.

 

[ElSupreme]

I strongly believe the temperature management will help pack longevity in any climate. After nearly two years with my FFE, I have noticed no degradation in range.

A battery thermal management system can't improve pack longevity if it never turns on. What temperature does the FFE TMS turn on at, on the high side? Yes, I've seen the message of "It's hot, please plug me in" for FFE on warmer days, but I don't know the actual temperature range of the FFE TMS.

My typical battery temperature in the summer is in the 60F to 70F range. I've never seen a battery temperature above about 85F in my Leaf.

What battery temperature does the FFE TMS turn on to cool at? And what temperature does it cool to? If the TMS never cools the pack, how would it improve pack longevity?

Actually, it is worse than that. The Leaf battery is cooled by airflow, the FFE has more insulation around the battery pack and is more cooled by the TMS. Charging and driving will both increase the temperature of the FFE battery pack in an isolated box until the TMS turn on. So the average temperature of the TMS system is likely to be higher than the airflow cooled battery, at least in cool climate places.

In warmer places, of course the TMS will improve battery life at the cost of higher energy usage. In cool places, no improvement, and might even make it very slightly worse.

Battery life model on the Leaf Wiki suggests well over a 10 year life in my climate. I'm ok with that. I can see why someone in AZ or hot areas of CA might not be as happy with the Leaf, and would rather have an FFE.

Active cooling is only a small bit of the battery thermal management. The FFE is water cooled, and will circulate coolant through the pack, and return the coolant to ambient temperatures, through a radiator (even if not actively running the AC compressor). This is specially important when charging and discharging the battery. It removes small localized hot spots, keeping the battery pack temperature consistent and within tolerable ranges. The added benefit of using actual cooling is just more security on warm days. The LEAF has no method of heat removal, or localized heat dispersal.

 

[michael]

I'm actually willing to accept that battery life will be ok in Seattle even without liquid cooling. But that's an exceptionally benign climate for battery life. Most places in the US have hot summers and many have very cold winters as well. That's why I believe a liquid cooled system is superior. Those in Seattle can get away without it, but most of us cannot

In answer to your question, the FFE. TMS limits temperature to approximately 98 F. I don't know what it does on the cold side. The excellent insulation limits battery heating even when not plugged in. I would imagine it also limits over cooling

I think the fact that FFE owners worry about battery degradation while Leaf owners complain about it speaks volumes.

 

[WattsUp]

I think the fact that FFE owners worry about battery degradation while Leaf owners complain about it speaks volumes.

And even "worry" might be too strong of a word.

Personally, I definitely "wonder" about it (will it happen? dunno, doesn't seem to be so far). But, I don't really worry about it.

 

[michael]

Right. "Give some thought to..." Would have been more accurate

 

[WetEV]

I'm actually willing to accept that battery life will be ok in Seattle even without liquid cooling. But that's an exceptionally benign climate for battery life. Most places in the US have hot summers and many have very cold winters as well. That's why I believe a liquid cooled system is superior. Those in Seattle can get away without it, but most of us cannot

In answer to your question, the FFE. TMS limits temperature to approximately 98 F. I don't know what it does on the cold side. The excellent insulation limits battery heating even when not plugged in. I would imagine it also limits over cooling

I think the fact that FFE owners worry about battery degradation while Leaf owners complain about it speaks volumes.

I think "superior" depends on where you live. Or more correctly what climate you have and what habits you have. TMS with an insulated battery box will likely lead to worse battery life in Seattle as peak and average battery temperatures with a TMS and insulated battery will likely be higher than with a passively cooled battery . In warmer places, TMS will become break-even, and in still warmer places will become a clear advantage.

There is also a large battery chemistry difference to lifetime. Nissan changed the chemistry starting with the 2013 model and again in 2015: the 2011 and 2012 models seem to have had much faster capacity loss than later models. For the same time and mileage, far fewer reports of missing capacity have been logged, even though there are a lot more 2013 Leafs on the road. Might be like the "Stop Safely Now" issue of the early FFEs, yet another reason why it is often good to wait a few years for the original model bugs to be found and fixed.

 

[GAbronsonb]

I just joined the ranks of FFE drivers. I leased my new Focus Electric last night at Sandy Springs Ford outside of Atlanta. I have been a Leaf driver for the past two years. I was attracted to the Leaf by the novelty of an electric car and the Georgia 5K tax rebate. I started looking at a new electric vehicle since my Leaf lease is up December 1. Nissan is tossing a bit of money at current Leaf drivers to get them to lease another. However, I have been disappointed in my 2012's battery and range loss.

I really have babied that car, charging to only 80% most times and keeping it garaged. I only have 12K miles on it after almost two years, and I still have lost 1/12 of my capacity. My real world range on a full charge was always closer to 60 miles. The overly optimistic guess-o-meter NEVER got the range right. It would show me as having 80 miles of range. I'd drive 6 miles to church and 6 miles back and have 50 miles of range, without using climate control. I wasn't driving like a bat out of hell either.

When I test drove the Focus, I took it on a long 15 mile loop and came back only down 13 miles of range. I had successfully regenerated two miles of range during the trip. Same thing happened on the drive home, and it happened today when I took it out to lunch. So far, I am impressed.

I was worried about cargo capacity, but it's not really an issue for us. We're not taking it on road trips. It can hold all of the kids' baseball gear and groceries, so we're fine there. And I do like the built in storage bin, which was extra on the Leaf.

I love having leather seats, which were not an option on my 2012 Leaf but are now available. And for all the talk about the Chademo charger, I only ever TWICE successfully charged using that L3 port. More times than not, whatever charger I had hoped to use was broken or already in use with one person waiting. I almost always charge at home, so L3 was not a deal breaker.

I gotta say I love MyFord Sync. It works almost flawlessly. The trainer at the dealership had me up and running in about 10 minutes. Compare that to the Leaf's nearly useless voice commands. And forget Leaf navigation. I stopped using that after it tried taking me on a 4 mile detour when I knew a MUCH shorter route.

I did really like my Leaf, and as an entry level EV, it's a good car to get. I am glad I did not buy it. By leasing it, I was protected by the huge losses others have had. I saw a post from one lady who bought here 2012 and has seen her range drop to 50 miles. She can't sell it because she owes more than it's worth.

I would have been content to lease another Leaf and get another tax credit, but I started looking seriously at the FFE. I was impressed with what I read and heard. The battery thermal management was a big plus, and although the range seems less than the Leaf, it appears to be accurate. If it tells me I have 60 miles, I feel confident I could get 58 at least out of it. If the Leaf told me 60 miles, I'd figure on 30 or 40.

Two plusses the Leaf has: heated steering wheel and homelink. Focus does not offer either. I stuck my old garage door opener to the visor, so homelink is addressed, but I will miss the heated steering wheel. The Focus' seats also seem to take awhile to heat up whereas the Leaf's seats heated up mighty quick. I am also having trouble getting the MyFord app to connect, but hopefully I'll get that resolved. No biggie. I seldom used the Leaf app as it was.

I am almost certain I am paying a good bit more for the FFE versus the Leaf. Local dealers were offering $380 a month for 24 months with 12K miles a year. I am paying $365 a month for 36 months with 10.5K miles a year (more than enough miles for me). I had negotiated via e-mail for a bit with the sales guy, and when Ford dropped the MSRP, that made the difference and made the numbers work. If the car performs as I hope, I might just buy it at the end of the lease.

So far, I am more impressed with it than I was with the Leaf. The Leaf is good, but I would be plenty worried if I had purchased one.

 

[WattsUp]

Two plusses the Leaf has: heated steering wheel and homelink. Focus does not offer either.

If you really want to, you can fix the latter issue yourself for < $100.

I and few others have done so:

I installed a HomeLink visor in my 2013 FFE in 10 minutes!

And congratulations on becoming a new FFE owner. Welcome!

 

[GAbronsonb]

If you really want to, you can fix the latter issue yourself for < $100.

I and few others have done so:

I installed a HomeLink visor in my 2013 FFE in 10 minutes!

And congratulations on becoming a new FFE owner. Welcome!

Thanks WattsUp! Last night someone told me they thought such a swap out was possible. I'll keep my eyes peeled on eBay for one. Are you enjoying your 2013? Any battery degradation? If this FFE performs well, I might just buy it at lease end for my son to drive to/from school.

 

[WattsUp]

Are you enjoying your 2013? Any battery degradation? If this FFE performs well, I might just buy it at lease end for my son to drive to/from school.

Yes, I love it. Best car ever. No noticeable degradation after nearly 2 years and 23K miles. I think you'll find that story pretty common among FFE owners.

 

[michael]

Concur with that. 24 k miles in Southern California. No noticeable degradation with two summers. Nobody on this board has reported any observable degradation

 

[GAbronsonb]

Concur with that. 24 k miles in Southern California. No noticeable degradation with two summers. Nobody on this board has reported any observable degradation

This is all very promising. I don't know ANYONE with a two year old Leaf who has NOT experienced range or capacity loss. Even when I still had all 12 battery bars on my Leaf, my range was still maxing out at 80 - 90 (versus 100+ when I first got it). Granted, it was probably already degrading, just not past the first bar yet.

 

[Rogerschro]

Concur with that. 24 k miles in Southern California. No noticeable degradation with two summers. Nobody on this board has reported any observable degradation

This is all very promising. I don't know ANYONE with a two year old Leaf who has NOT experienced range or capacity loss. Even when I still had all 12 battery bars on my Leaf, my range was still maxing out at 80 - 90 (versus 100+ when I first got it). Granted, it was probably already degrading, just not past the first bar yet.

Homelink was available on the 2012 FFE. That is the car I bought, used for just about what the new ones are coming down to in price. But despite that my used car has the color I wanted (frosted glass) and low miles so it may as well be a new car. Maybe one day I will install a garage door opener too and get to use the homelink function! As others have noted, you can get the homelink in the later models if you find the visor with it.

 

[WattsUp]

Thanks WattsUp! Last night someone told me they thought such a swap out was possible. I'll keep my eyes peeled on eBay for [a HomeLink visor].

If you really want one, just order it. I doubt anybody will put one up on eBay that they are trying "to get rid of". I did get mine on eBay, but it was a "buy it now" new item from Tasca, an eBay store that sells a lot of OEM automotive parts.

Hey, here is a current listing (from Tasca) for the same item I bought, although the price seems to have gone up a bit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230978347541

The listing shows that currently 4 are available, 31 sold.