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sefs

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
236
Location
Gibsonia, PA
I've just started to scratch the surface with the IDS software, but here are some interesting screen shots. There is a ton of data here. Most interesting (at least for my possible booster charger modification) the car sets a maximum charge power. That power is much more than the on board charger and supply. It also gives an estimated kWh to empty (that would be nice on the instrument panel :roll: ).

 
This looks really interesting. Could you tell us exactly what you needed to buy, what it cost, etc? I have an OBD scanner but it doesn't give as many bits of data

The kWh to empty is one of the things the scanner shows...you're right, it's very useful
 
Its not cheap:

First you need the Ford Vehicle Communications Module:
http://www.boschdiagnostics.com/TESTEQUIPMENT/DIAGNOSTICS/SCANTOOLS/VCM/PAGES/VCM.ASPX

Then you need the license to run IDS:
https://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/wds/vcm_Retail_renewal.asp

Unless he got a discount somewhere you're looking at close to $1000 just to view some parameters on your car.
 
It was $1,500 for the VCM II (dongle to communicate with car) and $700 for a 1-year license for the IDS software. Very expensive to just look at parameters, but I am trying to do a booster charger mod, and it is necessary to see what the car is doing in software. Also, I thought I had bricked my car (turns out I just didn't seat the disconnect properly), so that kind of forced my hand.
 
I was afraid of that. When you're done with it, I'll rent it from you for a few weeks!

Still, at the moment it appears you are "da man" who really knows what's going on inside the FFE. Most of the rest of us are speculating,

Let me ask you some specific questions:

Based on my OBD scanner, it appears that the usable capacity is 18.9 kWH, and that the range of SOC on the battery is between 90% and 8%. Do your data agree?

Based on my OBD scanner, it appears that the thermal management system doesn't start cooling until the battery temperature is around 98 degrees F. In normal use(driving and charging) it's typically in the 80's and 90's even with moderate (60's, 70's outside temp) Do you agree?

I don't have any way to read individual cell voltages, but my pack reading agrees with yours (around 360 fully charged, around 300 near depletion). Based on the speculation that there are 98 cells in series, that's roughly 3.0 to 3.6 V per cell. Do you have any readings to support these?
 
Michael, I have an idea of how to answer these questions, but I don't have the answers right now. I'll try to carve out some time this weekend to do some testing and develop some answers.
 
Ok I'd love to work with you on this. I've got the scanner so we have two sources of data. It would be great to really understand, not speculate, how this machine works. Ford has been very tight with the data. Leaf and Volt owners know a lot more than we do about the inner workings.

For example, on the Volt forums, people were speculating whether the TMS regulated temperature at 71 degrees or 74? Then someone started taking actual data and found that cooling didn't start til it reached 90, and stopped once it reached 73. I believe Ford's is even less agressive at cooling then that, but I need confirmation.

Anyway, let's have some fun with this!
 
Okay, here is the first bit of information I have determined. When the customer state of charge (SOC) is 100%, the car's internal SOC is 90%. I'll try to run it down to 0% customer SOC and see what the car's internal SOC states.
 
I expect you to find it's about 8%

Does your scanner show if the TMS is active? I'm especially eager to find out what is the band of regulation. My impression is that it doesn't cut in until the battery temp is somewhere in the range 95 to 100 F. I hope I'm wrong on this...
 
michael said:
Based on my OBD scanner, it appears that the usable capacity is 18.9 kWH, and that the range of SOC on the battery is between 90% and 8%. Do your data agree?

This is great to get this kind of info from you guys. Thanks and keep it coming!

Question to Michael, how many miles do you have on your FFE? 18.9 is certainly close enough to our generally accepted 19.5 to not be worrisome but at the same time reflects a bit of capacity loss, no? I actually obtained 19.8 from the trip meter for 100% to "stop now" in the summer when my car had 2500 miles on it, but close enough. I assume the trip meter's kWh should be based on the same data that the OBD scanner uses so the values would be comparable. But maybe not... What do you think?

Thanks!
 
Very good question. I will look into this more closely, but I think they are not exactly the same.

But for the moment, here's my impression:

Trip meter shows net energy used...how much comes out of the battery less regenerated energy put back in. As such, it may or may not compensate for charging inefficiency when regenerating.

For example....if you use 19 kWh and then coast down a huge mountain, you might show a trip meter of zero, but the battery might or might not be fully recharged (depending on how it works). In any case, we know one needs to put in more than 19 kWh in order to have 19 kWh actually stored in the battery. Is the trip meter that smart? Don't know yet but I'm guessing it's not.

Also, the ETE estimate seems to reflect the actual energy available. Suppose it's really cold, the ETE will drop faster than the trip meter would make one expect. We have in the past noted that the charge percentage meter seems sometimes to drop quickly in the beginning. I've noticed this about the ETE too. It seems to track the percentage pretty well (again, subject to confirmation)

I'm speculating (will look into this) that the ETE drops at a rate that's influenced by battery condition, temperature, etc but the trip meter shows usage. Despite the AAA study, I still feel the battery should have more than nominal capacity at reasonably elevated temperatures, not less as their study suggests. As you pointed out, you saw 19.8 on the trip meter in the summer. Maybe that was a factor...more than nominal capacity at elevated temp?

To answer your question...I've got about 14,000 miles
 
michael said:
For example....if you use 19 kWh and then coast down a huge mountain, you might show a trip meter of zero, but the battery might or might not be fully recharged (depending on how it works). In any case, we know one needs to put in more than 19 kWh in order to have 19 kWh actually stored in the battery. Is the trip meter that smart? Don't know yet but I'm guessing it's not.
I thought we did?

Other folks have verified that regenerating well past the point where the trip meter shows 0 kWh consumed causes a big delay before the meter will start incrementing above zero again. The assumption being that, internally, "negative" energy consumption is indeed correctly kept track of, but simply not displayed.

In other words, in you reset the trip meter to zero upon a full charge, then no matter how much regen you do (which is apparently always "subtracted" from the running total), when you reach empty, the meter should thus always and only display how much energy was originally "added" (i.e., the energy originally stored in the battery).

However, doing this test (a complete run from full to empty), people have reported anything from 18 kWh to 19.8 kWh. But, perhaps that range results from not everyone quite "draining" the tank in all cases.
 
No, I think it's the reverse. This shows that regeneration is NOT handled exactly correctly by the trip meter.

I believe you are saying the following...correct me if I misunderstand....

Suppose the battery is fully charged and (to pick a round number ) holds 20 kWH. Suppose further, to pick another round number, that regenerative charging has 10% losses... that is, to replace the 20 kWh you need to push in 22 kWh from the regeneration into the battery.

I believe you are saying that if you:

1. Fully charge (at this point our battery hypothetically holds 20 kWh)
2. Consume 10 kWh (it how holds 10 kWh)
3, Coast down a mountain, creating 11 kWh of regeneration and thereby exactly recharging the battery back to its original 20 kWH, then

the trip meter will show zero, but will internally store the 1 kWh of "negative consumption". If you then start driving and consuming energy from the battery, you have stated that there will be a "big delay" before the meter starts incrementing above zero....probably in this example until that 1 kWh of "negative consumption" has been compensated. The trip meter will then increment normally.

But wait....unless the system ACTUALLY overcharged the battery by this 1 kWh, then there would at this point be only 19 kWh left in the battery. If you kept driving until the car stopped, the trip meter would shown only 19 kWH which is less than the amount originally stored in the battery

So if it's true, as you say, that massive regeneration beyond zero on the trip meter causes a hidden "negative consumption", then either 1) the trip meter doesn't handle regeneration exactly correctly or 2) the system allows regeneration to overcharge the battery.

Expressed differently, if the trip meter has the ability to tally a "negative consumption" beyond full charge (whether or not it's actually displayed as such on the dashboard) then it probably represents another bug in the software, since the only way to actually have a "negative consumption" starting from a fully charged battery would be to overcharge it.

Am I missing something here?
 
Thanks for your reply. I don't see it as having to "put in" more than 19kWh to store 19; rather having to generate more than 19 to store 19. The question is, is the meter data reflecting what's being generated or what's being stored? I would think it measures what's stored, where charging efficiency shouldn't factor. It wouldn't be too hard to test this- take two full-discharge trips in the same weather, one with minimal regeneration and another with heavy regen. If total kWh varies significantly between the trips, then the regen data is inaccurate.

Maybe I misunderstood you earlier- does the OBD track energy used as well, or did you calculate it based on 90%-8% * 23kWh? I thought you had said the OBD reported 18.9kWh used. If so, wouldn't the OBD be using the same input data as the trip meter? I would think it would not make sense for the trip meter to use one set of data to come up with net energy used while the OBD uses another, nor for one to interpret the same data differently than the other. I understand the energy to empty has to be calculated differently and must be an estimate. It's pretty neat though, and personally I'd love to have that added as a display option in a software update.
 
michael said:
3, Coast down a mountain, creating 11 kWh of regeneration and thereby exactly recharging the battery back to its original 20 kWH, then
I don't think the trip meter counts the energy actually regenerated (from the motor). Rather, it counts the energy stored (into the battery) due to regeneration, which is different. In other words, the "charging efficiency" of regeneration is not kept track of. (But neither is charging efficiency reflected in any way by the trip meter when the stored energy originally came "from the wall".) I would argue that this is all the "correct" behavior for the trip meter. The meter tracks only the consumption and/or storage of energy as relative to the SOC of the battery.

Thus, to use another example, we should see this:

1) FFE starts at top of long hill with 10 kWh stored in the battery.
2) Trip meter is reset to zero.
3) FFE drives down the hill, "perfectly" regenerating all the way until the battery holds 15 kWh.
4) FFE turns around a drives back up the hill, "perfectly" consuming 5 kWh -- trip meter says "0.0 kWh" consumed all this way.
5) FFE keeps going, and just as 5.1 kWh has been consumed, trip meter starts advancing past zero again ("0.1 kWh" consumed).

As you point out, during Step 3, due to charging inefficiencies, more than 5 kWh will have actually been generated by the motor. But, only the 5 kWh that was actually stored in the battery is tracked by the trip meter.

In the above example, what the trip meter tell us at Step 5 is that the FFE has only "consumed" 0.1 kWh of the energy originally stored in the battery (the 10 kWh we started with) relative to the point we reset the meter at Step 2. All the other energy (the 5 kWh produced going down hill and the 5 kWh used to go back up) has been "canceled out".

Anyway, given that this appears to be the way the trip meter works, if you reset the meter upon a full charge, and then drive to empty, all your intermediate amounts of regeneration/consumption will cancel out and, when you reach empty, the trip meter should reflect only the energy consumed relative to the full charge -- or, in other words, the original stored energy (aka, the usable battery capacity).
 
WattsUp said:
Thus, to use another example, we should see this:

1) FFE starts at top of long hill with 10 kWh stored in the battery.
2) Trip meter is reset to zero.
3) FFE drives down the hill, "perfectly" regenerating all the way until the battery holds 15 kWh.
4) FFE turns around a drives back up the hill, "perfectly" consuming 5 kWh -- trip meter says "0 kWh consumed" all this way.
5) FFE keeps going, and just as 5.01 kWh has been consumed, trip meter starts advancing past zero again ("0.01 kWh consumed").

As you point out, during Step 3, due to charging inefficiencies, more than 5 kWh will have actually been generated by the motor. But, only the 5 kWh that was actually stored in the battery is tracked by the trip meter.

In the above example, what the trip meter tell us at Step 5 is that the FFE has only "consumed" 0.01 kWh of the energy originally stored in the battery (the 10 kWh we started with) relative to the point we reset the meter at Step 2. All the other energy (the 5 kWh produced going down hill and the 5 kWh used to go back up) has been "canceled out".

Anyway, given that this appears to be the way the trip meter works, if you reset the meter upon a full charge, and then drive to empty, all your intermediate amounts of regeneration/consumption will cancel out and, when you reach empty, the trip meter should reflect only the energy consumed relative to the full charge -- or, in other words, the original stored energy (aka, the usable battery capacity).


Very good points. I have embedded my responses in bold text to respond....


1) FFE starts at top of long hill with 10 kWh stored in the battery.
OK
2) Trip meter is reset to zero
OK
3) FFE drives down the hill, "perfectly" regenerating all the way until the battery holds 15 kWh.
At this point you are suggesting the trip meter will still read zero, but internally it will register some negative number, I believe and accept.
The question is whether this negative number is (case A) 5 kWh (representing the usable energy added to the battery) or (case B) some larger number
(for the sake of discussion, 5.5 kWh) which represents the energy pushed into the battery to accomplish 5 kWh of usable, available energy.

4) FFE turns around a drives back up the hill, "perfectly" consuming 5 kWh -- trip meter says "0 kWh consumed" all this way.
Here is where the question arises....how EXACTLY does the trip meter work
Does it need to drive off (case A) 5 kWh or (case B) 5.5 kWh
.
5) FFE keeps going, and just as 5.01 kWh (or possibly 5.51) has been consumed, trip meter starts advancing past zero again ("0.01 kWh consumed").
In case A, it will work as you say. At this point the battery will again hold 10 kWH
In case B,it is different. The negative number stored would have been not 5.5, not 5. You would have
consumed 5.5 kWh to bring the internal number back up to zero. The battery at this point will hold only 9.5 kWH

In case A, if you then drove the car to exhaustion, the trip meter would show 10
In case B, it would show only 9.5, and you might think the battery had deteriorated


As you point out, during Step 3, due to charging inefficiencies, more than 5 kWh will have actually been generated by the motor. But, only the 5 kWh that was actually stored in the battery is tracked by the trip meter.

So this is the very question, and I don't believe we know the answer....does the trip meter track the energy stored in the battery, or does it only track the energy
moving in-and-out of the battery. In the case of discharge, of course these are the same. But in the case of regenerative recharge, the are different by some number.


In the above example, what the trip meter tell us at Step 5 is that the FFE has only "consumed" 0.01 kWh of the energy originally stored in the battery (the 10 kWh we started with) relative to the point we reset the meter at Step 2. All the other energy (the 5 kWh produced going down hill and the 5 kWh used to go back up) has been "canceled out".

Anyway, given that this appears to be the way the trip meter works, if you reset the meter upon a full charge, and then drive to empty, all your intermediate amounts of regeneration/consumption will cancel out and, when you reach empty, the trip meter should reflect only the energy consumed relative to the full charge -- or, in other words, the original stored energy (aka, the usable battery capacity)

I don't know, but I very much doubt the code is sufficiently sophisticated to correctly handle the charging inefficiency during regeneration. We have to discuss it here to even clarify the point. My guess is they simply multiply the current by the voltage, call that power and integrate over time. In most cases it doesn't matter. They only reason we are addressing the issue is we are asking where the usable battery capacity is 20 or 19.5 or 19 kWH. We are doing the old "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" discussion, and only because it's interesting to us, not that it matters in any of our daily use of the vehicle. I'm sure Ford would prefer that nobody even ask such questions.
 
michael said:
I don't know, but I very much doubt the code is sufficiently sophisticated to correctly handle the charging inefficiency during regeneration.
...and I don't think it needs to do that.

I imagine that you're thinking that the trip meter is implemented in some way directly measuring the energy "flow" to and from the battery -- therefore your notion that the software algorithm required to perfectly discount the charging overhead (when measuring the flow back) would be "too complex".

I agree, that would likely be too complex, or at least would get things slightly wrong. But, I don't think the implementation needs to be that complex. I think the meter might be implemented by simply "sampling" the state of charge of the battery. In this way, any varying charging overheads (from the wall, or from regeneration) are automatically ignored. The battery is the only "source of truth".

Of course, neither of us knows for sure what's going on under the covers. But, I think we can reasonably guess (or hope) that, if the trip meter nominally reflects how much energy is consumed from the battery, the only sensible thing for it to do during regeneration would be to reflect how much energy is "negatively consumed" from, or actually stored back into, the battery, not how much energy is required to store it (which must be a greater amount, due to less-than-perfect charging efficiency). Otherwise, the trip meter would be attempting to measure two incompatible energy pools with a single number (leading to the types of discrepancies you're concerned about).

I also think the case where regeneration disengages (and it indeed does) when the battery is full is inconsequential. If the car regenerates enough energy (say, going down a very long hill) to fully recharge the battery, then the overall energy consumption will be zero. To be clear, the "negative consumption" will also be zero. That car would be in a state of equilibrium, simply rolling down the hill with the battery fully charged, consuming nothing and generating nothing (which is not unlike its state when parked in your driveway having fully charged from the wall). As soon as the car starts moving under its own power (at the bottom of the hill, or out of your driveway) the kWh consumed will "immediately" start ticking up (although this may take a few seconds as the meter only ticks in units of 100 watt-hours).

In other words, any tally of negative consumption, I think, would necessarily be "capped" by the available uncharged capacity of the battery -- as "consuming negatively" is just another way of saying "storing energy". By definition, you can only negatively consume as much as you can store. After all, if you start with an empty battery, and roll down a hill far enough to completely recharge it, the total negative consumption can only be exactly the usable capacity of the battery, but no higher than it. This is exactly the opposite of starting with a full battery and driving up a hill far enough to completely deplete it. In that case, the total "positive consumption" can also only be exactly the usable capacity of the battery.
 
We may be confusing ourselves... there may not be any need to literally keep any running "tallies" of the positive or negative consumption. As michael pointed out, actually doing so would be "complex".

Alternately, the trip meter's could be implemented by simply subtracting the current SOC from some "starting" SOC in order to display energy consumption relative to that point (which could be any point in the SOC). Indeed, the starting SOC is made equal to the current SOC whenever the trip meter is reset.

The total consumption from then on is then simply the difference between those two levels:

consumption = starting SOC - current SOC

Note that this value can be computed at any time -- no tallying required, only "sampling" of the SOC, as I suggested in my previous post. It also automatically accounts for energy gained from regeneration.

When regeneration occurs, the current SOC increments, perhaps even back above the starting SOC. The total negative consumption (if it were to be displayed) would, again, simply be the difference between the two levels (which would of course be negative in this case).

So, I think the "display algorithm" for the trip meter must be this:

actualConsumption = starting SOC - current SOC
displayedConsumption = max(0, actualConsumption)

That is, while the actual consumption is negative, the meter will show zero, and will continue to show zero while the current SOC fluctuates at any level above the starting SOC. But, when the current SOC finally drops back below the starting SOC, the meter will once again show "positive consumption".

Again note that any charging overhead is simply not a factor in this implementation. This approach is driven purely by sampling the battery SOC, and not by measuring the energy required (from the wall or regeneration) to reach that SOC.

This all makes a lot of sense to me, and seems to be corroborated by the meter's actual behavior. You can reset the meter at any time while driving and watch it do the "correct thing" relative to the newly-set starting SOC. For example, if you are applying the accelerator, you will see positive consumption instantly upon reset, even if the acceleration was proceeded by a massive amount of regeneration. By resetting the meter, you have made the starting SOC equal to the current SOC, and so you will instantly see positive energy consumption relative to that point.

And, finally, this is why you can reset the meter right after having fully charged the battery and then drive to empty to reasonably determine its capacity. Assuming you drain the battery very close to 0%, the total energy consumed, as displayed by trip meter, should quite accurately reflect the battery's total usable capacity.

The number you will be looking at is this:

consumption = full SOC - empty SOC

...where the empty SOC is zero, or very close to it.

Because folks probably don't perfectly get to zero, and because different batteries under different conditions (temperature, etc.) may not always reach the theoretical maximum "full SOC", we will naturally see some variance in the capacity (aka, total consumption) reported.
 
WattsUp said:
We may be confusing ourselves... there may not be any need to literally keep any running "tallies" of the positive or negative consumption. As michael pointed out, actually doing so would be "complex".

Alternately, the trip meter's could be implemented by simply subtracting the current SOC from some "starting" SOC in order to display energy consumption relative to that point (which could be any point in the SOC). Indeed, the starting SOC is made equal to the current SOC whenever the trip meter is reset.

The total consumption from then on is then simply the difference between those two levels:

consumption = starting SOC - current SOC

Note that this value can be computed at any time -- no tallying required, only "sampling" of the SOC, as I suggested in my previous post. It also automatically accounts for energy gained from regeneration.
...
This all makes a lot of sense to me, and seems to be corroborated by the meter's actual behavior.

I think the trip meter's energy numbers are measured, not calculated from state of charge the way you propose, for the following reasons:

1. Displayed SoC has been observed by me and others to not correlate linearly with displayed energy usage. With a full battery, SoC drops quickly compared to energy use at first, showing 10% used when only 1.5kWh have been used, then 25% at 4.5kWh, 50% at 9.5kwh, and so on. If energy use was calculated from SoC "sampling" rather than measured, wouldn't it correlate directly with SoC?

2. Sampling of SoC seems to be inherently inaccurate. I've never known a rechargeable battery's SoC display to behave very consistently over full range. Laptops, tablets, ps3 remotes, mobile phones, and my car- at times SoC seems to stay full longer than seems possible, and at other times seems to drop like a rock with minimal usage. Yes the display on my FFE behaves way better than those other devices, but it does vary like I said above. However my energy usage never runs way less than would make sense, nor does it ever jump up when I am clearly driving efficiently. It behaves as one would expect if it was being directly measured.

3. Battery's effective usable capacity varies with ambient temperature (near 20kWh at ideal temps over 60F, ~17kWh at freezing), but max and min SoC do not vary with ambient temp. Low temps basically make the battery act like a gas tank with a small leak. So for the meter to translate SoC into used energy, it would have to have a correction factor that accurately reflects the effect of temp on charge/discharge dynamics. There goes the less complexity argument. If it didn't have a correction factor, cold-temperature full battery discharges would record ideal battery capacity at any temp but it doesn't do this. Driving full to empty between 30-45 degrees a few months ago, I ended up using 18 kWh according to meter.

4. As one's battery capacity inevitably decreases, relative SoC will not. The battery will still have "full" 100% and "empty" 0% set points after say 30k miles, when the difference between full and empty is perhaps 18kWh rather than 19.5. In this situation if the trip meter is only calculated from the relative SoC (without a complex correction factor for battery age), it will show more energy used than was truly used. Just like in cold weather, this would result in reported capacity remaining at ideal even though available capacity is actually slipping. The efficiency Wh/mi display would look worse than it really is, and range estimate would reflect both errors canceling out and decrease in proportion to true capacity loss. Unfortunately range estimate is so variable, trends are unreliable. But several folks with mileage over 20k appear to have some capacity loss, however modest.

5. Measuring two-way energy movement isn't all that complex. We all have an electric service meter doing half of this at home, and those who have home solar/wind tied into the grid have a meter doing exactly this. Accounting for inefficiency in energy movement from charger to battery doesn't have to be complex. My layman's understanding of charging inefficiency is that at the battery level, the magnitude is pretty constant, at 90%. The source to charger inefficiency seems to be more variable, but isn't relevant to this issue. Insofar as battery level inefficiency may actually vary, I do not think it would tax a computer much to have an algorithm taking relevant factors into consideration.

Now if as I think Michael suspects the trip meter doesn't account for storage inefficiency, then per EPA's 90% efficiency quote, the trip meter would think it's gaining 10kWh for every 9 kWh it truly gains. Is that enough of an error to really mess things up? Consider that my best full-battery-discharge regen mile count was 10, translating to approx 2.5kWh as what the car "thought" I gained. In this situation my car actually would have gained 2.25 kWh. If the total trip recorded a use of 19.8kWh, I actually would have used 19.55 kWh. That's not a very big error to me- especially considering the trip meter isn't specifically designed to measure available battery capacity and we're just trying to make it do that.
 
michael said:
Based on my OBD scanner, it appears that the thermal management system doesn't start cooling until the battery temperature is around 98 degrees F. In normal use(driving and charging) it's typically in the 80's and 90's even with moderate (60's, 70's outside temp) Do you agree?
I haven't confirmed this via IDS, but the service manual does state that the battery coolant loop will start being passed through the chiller at 95F. Now, it doesn't state when it would start passing through the radiator, so I still need to figure that out (presumably a lower temperature). I'll try to confirm, but it just started getting up to 70F here yesterday, and my battery has only been in the low 80's with this weather.
 
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