2014 Ford Focus joins my 2012 LEAF as my only cars.

[unplugged]

With the polar, moment of inertias involved, etc...a slight rear weight bias, especially one out towards the cargo area, can induce an otherwise neutral car into oversteer. With normal front bias, it just results in benign understeer, and plow, which is the generally the safe recipe for most family oriented cars. It doesn't take much weight at all to make one end of the car favor the other when it comes to weight bias. This is why most cars with a rear weight bias will have wider tires in the back.

While I appreciate your understanding of oversteer and understeer, I will once again point out that your conclusion about the dangerous handling of the Focus Electric is not shared by ANY within the automobile media. Your conclusions are not based on reality, nor upon any reading of the literally hundreds of reviewers who have subjected the Focus Electric to handling beyond the limit.

You are certainly welcome to conjure up any scientific guesses for why the Leaf has such superior handling that has been missed by all the professional critics. But while you do that, perhaps you can provide an explanation of how the Leaf has superior handling when its weight distribution is 56.6 front, 43.4 rear. Maybe the Leaf just missed that perfect 50/50 that the Focus Electric obtained?

 

[Abelgoddard]

So since I don't pretend it to be a sports car, I would at least expect a level of refinement in the steering that doesn't feel darty, or requiring constant attention to get the car to keep a straight line like any normal car.

I can't speak to tech specs, but as far as driving, I think your assertion of difficulty in holding a straight line at highway speed is ridiculous. A car not driving straight is a huge pet peeve if mine, and I'd certainly notice if there were any undue angling taking place. I would submit, not that your experience is false, but perhaps your car is faulty. Get it inspected and adjusted properly, then come back. While I trust my own experience in specific vehicles, I also recognize that individual cars are not always a reliable example of the model. Since so many expert critics praise the FFE, maybe you should reconsider testing your opinion. Either get your car checked and fixed, or drive several other FFEs.

 

[ELROY]

So since I don't pretend it to be a sports car, I would at least expect a level of refinement in the steering that doesn't feel darty, or requiring constant attention to get the car to keep a straight line like any normal car.

I can't speak to tech specs, but as far as driving, I think your assertion of difficulty in holding a straight line at highway speed is ridiculous. A car not driving straight is a huge pet peeve if mine, and I'd certainly notice if there were any undue angling taking place. I would submit, not that your experience is false, but perhaps your car is faulty. Get it inspected and adjusted properly, then come back. While I trust my own experience in specific vehicles, I also recognize that individual cars are not always a reliable example of the model. Since so many expert critics praise the FFE, maybe you should reconsider testing your opinion. Either get your car checked and fixed, or drive several other FFEs.

The car is at the dealership today. I am hoping it will improve the characteristics. Its obvious the Focus is the more stylish car, and I want to like it. It just his one thing that bothers me every day I drive it. Also, by calling the LEAF an appliance, it might actually be a compliment in that it does what it is asked of, without exhibiting unrefined behavior. As I said, in instrumented tests, the LEAF is right there with the Focus. In the ride and comfort department, the LEAF is a step above. You climb out of a $100,000 luxury sedan, and the smoothness of the ride and drive of the LEAF is still impressive. So much so that you immediately notice where the Focus falls short.

That being said, since this will just be my work commuter car, I am not that concerned that the LEAF is a much roomier family car. (Rear seat and cargo space). I do wish that car wasn't so slow off the line as to be irritating. For all those supposed sport enthusiasts in here, how do you like it when your Focus can't even catch a LEAF from a standstill in the quarter mile? The electric car's main power band advantage is instant low end torque. Too bad Ford neutered it. Does it have to do with the chassis and weight bias? Who knows?

And then the A/C power consumption is ridiculous. The LEAF A/C blows freezing cold, and only draws a fraction of the power. I use the A/C constantly, and have found the FFE range to be no better than 60 miles. The LEAF does better. Just read this post from a fellow forum member:

jstack6 Post subject: Re: Leaf vs FFEPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:58 pm

Apr 28, 2013 8:49 pm
Posts: 22 MY FFE has not lost any battery capacity after more than a year in the Phoenix heat. I check it with a SCAN GAUGE made just for the FORD plugins.

That being said the Air Cond uses 2 to 3 times more energy than the LEAF. Mine drops 30 miles and my wife's LEAF only drops 2-10 on a hot day with a full charge. The Focus battery looks like it could last 20 years.

Both have very similar range. The new 2015 LEAF has Desert Heat Tolerant batteries. That would be good. I's tell them to lease any electric since they change so fast and keep dropping the price. It could be hard to sell as more choices come out.

 

[v_traveller]

Rollover ratings are not a sole indication of a cars CG. I have no idea why the ICE Focus would have a worse rollover rating?

No, but it's a heck of a lot better than conjecture.

Is there any documentation out there to prove the ICE has a higher CG than the EV Focus?

I'll ask you the converse - is there any documentation out there to prove the FFE have a higher cg than the ICE Focus?

So since I don't pretend it to be a sports car, I would at least expect a level of refinement in the steering that doesn't feel darty, or requiring constant attention to get the car to keep a straight line like any normal car.

Anyone else here have the same problem? This is way off of my experience. Mine tracks straight and true at any speed as well as under acceleration and braking. That is, as long as I'm not turning. Maybe there's something wrong with my FFE?

The ride and smoothness of the LEAF is on a much greater improvement level over the Focus, than the overall handling of the Focus is over the LEAF's capabilities.

Huh?

Quote from C&D on the FFE:
"The most natural-feeling of our EVs, the Focus delivers a smooth if somewhat muted rush of torque and has excellent brakes. It stays flat through corners and cuts a clean freeway groove with an unflustered ride."

Quotes from C&D on the LEAF:
"Except for a few too many pieces of hard interior plastic, everything about the Leaf is soft, from the cushy leather buckets to the way the steering and suspension respond to driver inputs. The Leaf lists and rolls with languid motions, like a sailboat tacking in a middling swell. It is happiest when following taillights in city traffic. The brakes are only just adequate. "

"The real problem for us is that the Leaf isn’t as composed as the Focus and the Fit, and it isn’t much fun to drive."

So I guess the FFE's cutting a clean freeway groove with an unflustered ride is much less desirable than the LEAF's listing and rolling with languid motions?

Remember, with narrower tires the LEAF corners harder, stops shorter, and nearly ties the Focus slalom speed, without the ill handling characteristics of the Focus.

I wouldn't call a .02g difference in cornering and 5 ft shorter 70-0mph stopping distance as a significant difference in cornering harder and stopping shorter. With the chest-beating credentials you posted earlier, I'd expect you to conclude that such differences are in the noise, as is the 0.1mph slower slalom speed.

Since you don't seem to be convinced, I will post some of the exact same handling complaints by others on this forum if I can find them.

Please do, I'm curious. Been on this forum for a year and a half, don't remember anything but accolades from owners as well as the press.

And perhaps you don't understand the significance of a FWD car with a rear weight bias, or anything close to it. On a RWD car, it is fine, because when you accelerate, the weight of the car transfers back to the rear wheels for traction. On a FWD car (especially one like the Focus with less weight on the front axle to begin with) acceleration is further hampered when the lightly loaded front wheels, have even less weight on them due to weight transfer during acceleration. A 911 or most mid engine cars have fantastic traction grip because their rear weight bias becomes even more pronounced when accelerating. A proven platform. Think of the Focus as going to the other extreme of idea weight distribution when it comes to acceleration.

Agreed! But wouldn't you also agree that the expected behavior would not be dartiness under acceleration, but rather it should be of vagueness or lack of resposiveness as the contact patches of the front tires are significantly reduced?

Remember, I am complaining primarily of the handling characteristics of the Focus during acceleration, or maintaining highway speeds etc.

Try a RAV4 EV in sport mode. If you can't control the FFE, you'll really hate the RAV4.

Anyone here with a Focus ST or Fiesta ST? Would love to hear how those puppies track in straight-line acceleration...

 

[unplugged]

I do wish that car wasn't so slow off the line as to be irritating. For all those supposed sport enthusiasts in here, how do you like it when your Focus can't even catch a LEAF from a standstill in the quarter mile?

I stopped engaging in street drag racing when I was around 18. On the other hand, I do appreciate a car that can thread the needle in traffic and respond instantly between 20 and 60 mph. THAT is the acceleration that really counts. In that same C&D comparo, the Leaf was a second slower from 50 - 70 mph than the FFE. That is where I need the powerband, not trying to drag race a Leaf. When I'm on the freeway, and I want to move into another lane, I don't want to be picking leaves waiting for some acceleration. A true enthusiast appreciates quick handling and acceleration on demand, not how fast he or she can move away from a traffic light.

 

[v_traveller]

I do wish that car wasn't so slow off the line as to be irritating.

Me too, 0-20mph is annoying. From 20-85mph, now that's fun. Catches many folks by surprise. Sounds like the LEAF is like the Volt - strong 0-30mph, but loses steam after that.

For all those supposed sport enthusiasts in here, how do you like it when your Focus can't even catch a LEAF from a standstill in the quarter mile?

C&D quarter mile test results: FFE 17.9 secs@80mph, LEAF 17.7sec@78mph
I'd say the FFE has no problem catching the LEAF.

Here's where I have my fun:
30-50mph: FFE 3.8 sec, LEAF 4.0 sec
50-70mph: FFE 6.2 sec, LEAF 6.9 sec

In my opinion, Ford made the right tradeoff.

 

[ELROY]

I don't have time to argue with you, but I found plenty of info on the Focus steering complaints on the NHTSA with just a few searches. (see my post below, and if you want, I will find you a whole thread on a newer FFE complaint I just saw the other day.

Sorry, the Focus does not show any objective handling advantages as shown by the C&D objective performance report card. Subjectively, everyone has their own opinions. And as bad as the LEAF looks, there must be something compelling about it when in May there were 3117 LEAFs sold in the US compared to 177. Thats over 17 times the sales volume. Its not price, because the average LEAF costs just as much as a Focus. You have your opinions, and a magazine has its opinion. But sales volumes prove what people buy after the test drive and looking at both cars.

Rollover ratings are not a sole indication of a cars CG. I have no idea why the ICE Focus would have a worse rollover rating?

No, but it's a heck of a lot better than conjecture.

Is there any documentation out there to prove the ICE has a higher CG than the EV Focus?

I'll ask you the converse - is there any documentation out there to prove the FFE have a higher cg than the ICE Focus?

So since I don't pretend it to be a sports car, I would at least expect a level of refinement in the steering that doesn't feel darty, or requiring constant attention to get the car to keep a straight line like any normal car.

Anyone else here have the same problem? This is way off of my experience. Mine tracks straight and true at any speed as well as under acceleration and braking. That is, as long as I'm not turning. Maybe there's something wrong with my FFE?

The ride and smoothness of the LEAF is on a much greater improvement level over the Focus, than the overall handling of the Focus is over the LEAF's capabilities.

Huh?

Quote from C&D on the FFE:
"The most natural-feeling of our EVs, the Focus delivers a smooth if somewhat muted rush of torque and has excellent brakes. It stays flat through corners and cuts a clean freeway groove with an unflustered ride."

Quotes from C&D on the LEAF:
"Except for a few too many pieces of hard interior plastic, everything about the Leaf is soft, from the cushy leather buckets to the way the steering and suspension respond to driver inputs. The Leaf lists and rolls with languid motions, like a sailboat tacking in a middling swell. It is happiest when following taillights in city traffic. The brakes are only just adequate. "

"The real problem for us is that the Leaf isn’t as composed as the Focus and the Fit, and it isn’t much fun to drive."

So I guess the FFE's cutting a clean freeway groove with an unflustered ride is much less desirable than the LEAF's listing and rolling with languid motions?

Remember, with narrower tires the LEAF corners harder, stops shorter, and nearly ties the Focus slalom speed, without the ill handling characteristics of the Focus.

I wouldn't call a .02g difference in cornering and 5 ft shorter 70-0mph stopping distance as a significant difference in cornering harder and stopping shorter. With the chest-beating credentials you posted earlier, I'd expect you to conclude that such differences are in the noise, as is the 0.1mph slower slalom speed.

Since you don't seem to be convinced, I will post some of the exact same handling complaints by others on this forum if I can find them.

Please do, I'm curious. Been on this forum for a year and a half, don't remember anything but accolades from owners as well as the press.

And perhaps you don't understand the significance of a FWD car with a rear weight bias, or anything close to it. On a RWD car, it is fine, because when you accelerate, the weight of the car transfers back to the rear wheels for traction. On a FWD car (especially one like the Focus with less weight on the front axle to begin with) acceleration is further hampered when the lightly loaded front wheels, have even less weight on them due to weight transfer during acceleration. A 911 or most mid engine cars have fantastic traction grip because their rear weight bias becomes even more pronounced when accelerating. A proven platform. Think of the Focus as going to the other extreme of idea weight distribution when it comes to acceleration.

Agreed! But wouldn't you also agree that the expected behavior would not be dartiness under acceleration, but rather it should be of vagueness or lack of resposiveness as the contact patches of the front tires are significantly reduced?

Remember, I am complaining primarily of the handling characteristics of the Focus during acceleration, or maintaining highway speeds etc.

Try a RAV4 EV in sport mode. If you can't control the FFE, you'll really hate the RAV4.

Anyone here with a Focus ST or Fiesta ST? Would love to hear how those puppies track in straight-line acceleration...

 

[ELROY]

I do wish that car wasn't so slow off the line as to be irritating.

Me too, 0-20mph is annoying. From 20-85mph, now that's fun. Catches many folks by surprise. Sounds like the LEAF is like the Volt - strong 0-30mph, but loses steam after that.

For all those supposed sport enthusiasts in here, how do you like it when your Focus can't even catch a LEAF from a standstill in the quarter mile?

C&D quarter mile test results: FFE 17.9 secs@80mph, LEAF 17.7sec@78mph
I'd say the FFE has no problem catching the LEAF.

Here's where I have my fun:
30-50mph: FFE 3.8 sec, LEAF 4.0 sec
50-70mph: FFE 6.2 sec, LEAF 6.9 sec

In my opinion, Ford made the right tradeoff.

Seriously, none of these cars (including the Tesla) have acceleration from a roll like my BMW's I owned. The only satisfiying acceleration is off the line. Enjoyable every day. The Focus is terrible in this regard. If not that worst. Pull out into traffic, etc...it is a safety hazard. And then you barely throttle it coming out of the driveway and it chirps its tires? LEAF exhibits none of this behavior.

 

[ELROY]

Top of this NHTSA list in complaints:

http://www.thesafetyinstitute.org/vehicle-safety-watch-list/


1! 10413327! FORD!FOCUS! 2012! STEERING! TL* THE CONTACT
OWNS A 2012 FORD FOCUS. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHILE DRIVING
APPROXIMATELY 60 MPH, THE VEHICLE WOULD PULL TO THE RIGHT AND SHE
WOULD HAVE TO USE EXCESSIVE FORCE TO CONTINUE STEERING STRAIGHT.
THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER WHERE THE CONTACT
WAS INFORMED THAT THE VEHICLE WAS OPERATING AS INTENDED, AND
THERE WAS NO REMEDY AVAILABLE. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE
FAILURE MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 75. ! ! MILWAUKEE!WI
! 20110628
1

1! 10421413! FORD!FOCUS! 2012! STEERING! IN MY BRAND NEW 2012
FORD FOCUS WHILE DRIVING AT SPEEDS ABOVE 50MPH IT IS INCREDIBLY
HARD TO KEEP THE CAR IN IT'S LANE WITHOUT CONSTANT ADJUSTMENT OF
THE STEERING WHEEL. IT FEELS LIKE YOU'RE BEING BUFFETED BY STRONG
WINDS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE VEHICLE. I'M AFRAID TO DRIVE FASTER THAN
60MPH DUE TO THE FACT THE VEHICLE ACTS LIKE A SNAKE GOING BACK AND
FORTH SO MUCH. I'M NOT ALONE IN THIS, THE ONLINE FORD FOCUS
COMMUNITY "FOCUSFANATICS.COM" HAS REPORTED MANY CASES OF THIS
OCCURRING. THE THREAD OF COMPLAINTS IS HERE HTTP://
http://WWW.FOCUSFANATICS.COM/FORUM/SHOWTHREAD.PHP?T=261200 THE
SOLUTION APPEARS TO BE HAVING THE ENTIRE POWER STEERING RACK
REPLACED. I'M WORRIED A PROBLEM SUCH AS THIS COULD CAUSE A SEVERE
ACCIDENT IF SOMEONE ISN'T EXPECTING TO FIGHT WITH THEIR STEERING
WHEEL. I ALMOST HIT A CAR ADJACENT TO ME BECAUSE OF THIS. IF HE
HADN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN BAD. I REALIZE
YOU ARE VERY BUSY BUT I SINCERELY HOPE YOU TAKE THE TIME TO REVIEW
THIS ISSUE AND THE THREAD I POSTED IN ORDER TO ! PREVENT POSSIBLE

1! 10461291! FORD!FOCUS! 2012! STEERING! WHENEVER I DRIVE THE
CAR AROUND 60 MILES SPEED, THE STEERING WHEEL BECOMES STIFF AND
STARTS TO WANDER. IT BECOMES REALLY HARD TO BALANCE THE WHEELS. I
NOTICED THIS ON MY BRAND NEW FORD FOCUS SE FOR THE FIRST TIME ON
MAY 25TH 2012, WHEN I WAS DRIVING ON A TOLLWAY AT 60 TO 70 MILES SPEED
PER HOUR. I BOUGHT THIS CAR ON MAY 24TH 2012. THIS CAR IS NOT GOOD
FOR DRIVING ON HIGHWAYS ESPECIALLY FOR DRIVING AROUND THE SPEED 60
MILES PER HOUR. NOW I AM REALLY SCARED TO DRIVE MY CAR ON
HIGHWAYS. SO FAR, THERE WERE NO ACCIDENTS. GOING FORWARD IF
SOMETHING HAPPENS, I WOULD BLAME FORD AND SUE THE COMPANY. FORD
MUST FIX THIS ISSUE OR RECALL THIS MODEL. *TR! ! FRISCO

1! 10465313! FORD!FOCUS! 2012! STEERING! SINCE DAY ONE OF THE
PURCHASE OF MY (MARCH ) 2012 FORD FOCUS THE STEERING "FEELS" LIKE IT
IS CONSTANTLY WANDERING, AFTER AN HOUR DRIVE TIME, YOUR ARM IS GIVE
OUT FROM THE STRESS. MY CAR ALSO SEEMS TO HAVE A FLUTTER IN THE
TRANSMISSION OR ENGINE DURING TAKE OFF. THE CAR WILL ALSO ROLL BACK
WHILE STOPPED ON AN INCLINE. THE DEALER CHECKED STEERING THE 4TH
DAY AFTER PURCHASE AND ASSURED ME THE STEERING WAS FINE, THAT IT
WAS NEW & TIGHT. I DID RECIEVE A RECALL ON THE TRANSMISSION TO
UPGRADE OR MODIFY SOME TYPE OF CHIP. I CANNOT TELL ANY IMPROVMENT
SINCE THE UPGRADE. MY WIFE & SON HATE TO DRIVE MY CAR BECAUSE THEY
ARE AFRAID OF THE STEERING AND ROLLING BACK....BY THE WAY IT IS AN
AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION---I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THIS ON ANY
VEHICLE THAT I HAVE OWNED IN THE PAST. *TR! ! ARKADELPHIA
! AR! 20120329

1! 10468122! FORD!FOCUS! 2012! STEERING! I HAD AN EARLIER
COMPLAINT ON MY FIRST FOCUS PURCHASED IN MARCH 2012...INCIDENT DATE
JUNE 27 2012...I LOST POWER STEERING ON 3 OCCASIONS...SERVICE WAS
NOT ABLE TO FIX IT SO THEY EXCHANGED MY CAR FOR AN IDENTICAL ONE ON
JULY 25, 2012...THE SECOND DAY I DROVE THE NEW FOCUS, SOMETHING
STRANGE HAPPENED WITH THE STEERING WHILE ON THE EXPRESSWAY...I
WAS GOING ABOUT 60 MPH ON A STRAIGHT ROAD AND THE CAR STARTED TO
WANDER TO THE RIGHT AND IT ALSO DID IT TO THE LEFT...THE STEERING IS
NHTSA Consumer Complaints as of May 23, 2014
VERY TIGHT AND WAS DIFFICULT TO GET THE CAR GOING STRAIGHT...I'VE
BEEN TO THE DEALERSHIP AND THEY SAY THAT IS JUST HOW IT DRIVES..IF
THIS TRUE, I'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO DRIVE THE EXPRESSWAY...THIS
WANDERING WAS DIFFICULT TO CONTROL AND TIRING TO FIGHT THE WHEEL....
2 NEW CARS IN 4 MONTHS TIME BOTH WITH STEERING PROBLEMS MAKES ME
THINK THERE ARE SOME KINKS WITH THE NEW ELECTRIC STEERING ON
FORDS....THIS WILL BE MY FIRST AND LAST EXPERIENCE WITH FORDS.

1! 10486191! FORD!FOCUS! 2012! STEERING! THE VEHICLE HAS HAD
STRANGE STEERING ISSUES AS FOLLOWS. 60MPH LIGHT RAIN, ROAD
BARELY WET - VEHICLE STARTS MOVING AROUND LIKE IN A 100MPH CROSS
WIND, EXCEPT THERE IS NO WIND. TRACTION CONTROL COMES ON, VEHICLE
NEARLY LOOSES CONTROL. THIS WAS ON STRAIGHT ROAD. NEXT 5 MPH DRY,
IN PARKING LOT, STEERING LOSS, WARNING OF POWER ASSIST STEERING
FAILURE. STOP CAR. TURNED OFF AND BACK ON, ALL OK.NEXT 30MPH, 1
MINUTE AFTER START UP, DRIVING ON ROAD, STEERING LOSS, WARNING OF
POWER ASSIST STEERING FAILURE. I WAS GETTING READY TO MAKE A TURN.
THIS COULD HAVE CAUSED AN ACCIDENT.NEX 60 MPH DRY ROAD, NO WIND,
VEHICLE STARTS MOVING ALL AROUND LIKE ITS AGAIN IN A 100MPH
CROSSWIND. THIS HAS HAPPENED NUMEROUS TIMES.NEXT SEARCH OF
GOOGLE SHOWS THIS IS A KNOWN ISSUE AND HAS BEEN REPORTED BY
SEVERAL. THIS IS A SERIOUS SAFETY HAZARD THAT RIVALS STUCK
ACCELERATORS *TR! ! LAKE OZARK! MO! 20121015


*JS

I sure hope Ford didn't neuter the low end torque to bandaid this problem on an inherently faulty platform. Anyone know if the steering system on the 2014 is the same as the 2012 FFEs?

 

[ElSupreme]

Seriously, none of these cars (including the Tesla) have acceleration from a roll like my BMW's I owned. The only satisfiying acceleration is off the line. Enjoyable every day. The Focus is terrible in this regard. If not that worst. Pull out into traffic, etc...it is a safety hazard. And then you barely throttle it coming out of the driveway and it chirps its tires? LEAF exhibits none of this behavior.

You haven't been in a Model S Performance then. Unlike ICE vehicles EVs don't suffer longer from roll acceleration times.

The FFE is not even close to the slowest thing on the road. We have massive tractor trailers everywhere that pull out into traffic just fine and aren't safety hazards. A Focus Electric isn't even close. You knock the Focus for not putting enough power down, then say it chirps tires. You get to pick one or the other not both.

Knock it off with the hyperbole.

 

[ElSupreme]

Top of this NHTSA list in complaints:

Top of the list in sales (by a very large margin >20%) in 2012.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=619afc64-1886-4110-a3f0-a1df03b47726

 

[hybridbear]

And as bad as the LEAF looks, there must be something compelling about it when in May there were 3117 LEAFs sold in the US compared to 177. Thats over 17 times the sales volume. Its not price, because the average LEAF costs just as much as a Focus. You have your opinions, and a magazine has its opinion. But sales volumes prove what people buy after the test drive and looking at both cars.

This likely has more to do with Nissan's strategy than the qualities of the vehicles. Many Leaf buyers probably don't drive the FFE.

 

[unplugged]

And as bad as the LEAF looks, there must be something compelling about it when in May there were 3117 LEAFs sold in the US compared to 177.

Finally. The old refrain, "The Leaf sells better, so it must be better." This might come as a surprise to you, but the world's ugliest car, the Pontiac Aztek sold 27,354 units in 2003. Gee, that's more than the 22,610 units sold by the Leaf in 2013. There must be a reason. I guess its the handling.

Your argument makes as much sense as mine.

But I'll let an auto magazine make my argument for me: C&D, Feb. 2014. Leaf #4. Focus Electric #2.

 

[ELROY]

Seriously, none of these cars (including the Tesla) have acceleration from a roll like my BMW's I owned. The only satisfiying acceleration is off the line. Enjoyable every day. The Focus is terrible in this regard. If not that worst. Pull out into traffic, etc...it is a safety hazard. And then you barely throttle it coming out of the driveway and it chirps its tires? LEAF exhibits none of this behavior.

You haven't been in a Model S Performance then. Unlike ICE vehicles EVs don't suffer longer from roll acceleration times.

The FFE is not even close to the slowest thing on the road. We have massive tractor trailers everywhere that pull out into traffic just fine and aren't safety hazards. A Focus Electric isn't even close. You knock the Focus for not putting enough power down, then say it chirps tires. You get to pick one or the other not both.

Knock it off with the hyperbole.

The quarter mile trap speed is a better indicator of a car's power to weight ratio, and roll on acceleration. The Tesla runs low 12's. Which is barely on par with my 2011 335d diesel. It ran a 12.3 qtr mile, and 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. Also got 45mpg on the highway. For my cars that ran around 130mph in the qtr mile, the Tesla would need to find an extra 20mph or 200+ HP somewhere to keep up with that trap speed. The 2014 M5 I was driving, and the tuned E63, makes the Tesla look like it is standing still. Don't believe me? Look at my videos on youtube (Hotrod182), I personally took a video of a P85 doing 0-70mph. Then compare it to my other car videos. The Tesla is very slow in comparison. Some of my cars did 60-130 in under 7 seconds. (Faster than a ZR1). The 60-130 time of a Tesla would be a joke comparatively speaking.

 

[unplugged]

Seriously, none of these cars (including the Tesla) have acceleration from a roll like my BMW's I owned. The only satisfiying acceleration is off the line. Enjoyable every day. The Focus is terrible in this regard. If not that worst. Pull out into traffic, etc...it is a safety hazard. And then you barely throttle it coming out of the driveway and it chirps its tires? LEAF exhibits none of this behavior.

You haven't been in a Model S Performance then. Unlike ICE vehicles EVs don't suffer longer from roll acceleration times.

The FFE is not even close to the slowest thing on the road. We have massive tractor trailers everywhere that pull out into traffic just fine and aren't safety hazards. A Focus Electric isn't even close. You knock the Focus for not putting enough power down, then say it chirps tires. You get to pick one or the other not both.

Knock it off with the hyperbole.

Frankly, Elroy appears to have drifted into hyperbole because he is confronted with facts at every turn. He just keeps digging deeper and deeper. The next thing he will state is that the FFE is a hazard to humanity and should be removed from the roadways of America.

His initial claim that the FFE has a high center of gravity was immediately rebutted by the fact that the FFE has a five-star rollover rating, while the gas FF and Leaf have lower ratings. When the fact was noted that the NHTSA uses CG solely for rollover evaluation, Elroy moved on to claiming that the weight distribution front to rear is the real problem. Again, when confronted with the fact that no auto critic has found the FFE to be poor handling, he claims that, as an expert, he finds the car to be poor handling. Then, he claims the Leaf is a better handling car than the FFE, despite a direct comparison that found the Leaf lacking.

I could go on, but this thing about the car being a danger because it doesn't beat the Leaf off the line is just amusing. At this point there really isn't any credibility for Elroy to lose.

 

[ELROY]

Seriously, none of these cars (including the Tesla) have acceleration from a roll like my BMW's I owned. The only satisfiying acceleration is off the line. Enjoyable every day. The Focus is terrible in this regard. If not that worst. Pull out into traffic, etc...it is a safety hazard. And then you barely throttle it coming out of the driveway and it chirps its tires? LEAF exhibits none of this behavior.

You haven't been in a Model S Performance then. Unlike ICE vehicles EVs don't suffer longer from roll acceleration times.

The FFE is not even close to the slowest thing on the road. We have massive tractor trailers everywhere that pull out into traffic just fine and aren't safety hazards. A Focus Electric isn't even close. You knock the Focus for not putting enough power down, then say it chirps tires. You get to pick one or the other not both.

Knock it off with the hyperbole.

Frankly, Elroy appears to have drifted into hyperbole because he is confronted with facts at every turn. He just keeps digging deeper and deeper. The next thing he will state is that the FFE is a hazard to humanity and should be removed from the roadways of America.

His initial claim that the FFE has a high center of gravity was immediately rebutted by the fact that the FFE has a five-star rollover rating, while the gas FF and Leaf have lower ratings. When the fact was noted that the NHTSA uses CG solely for rollover evaluation, Elroy moved on to claiming that the weight distribution front to rear is the real problem. Again, when confronted with the fact that no auto critic has found the FFE to be poor handling, he claims that, as an expert, he finds the car to be poor handling. Then, he claims the Leaf is a better handling car than the FFE, despite a direct comparison that found the Leaf lacking.

I could go on, but this thing about the car being a danger because it doesn't beat the Leaf off the line is just amusing. At this point there really isn't any credibility for Elroy to lose.

Looks like you are the one drinking the kool aid when it comes to defending your choices. I back up my assertions with facts.

I will again reiterate the facts for you:
I have owned or lived with various performance vehicles
.
I have considerable experience at the track and the drag strip. I do a considerable amount of instrumented testing.

The Ford shows no considerable edge over the LEAF when it comes to handling. LEAF has better skidpad, and Stopping distance, Focus .10mph better in that particular test. (Focus wears wider tires!)

The Focus and LEAF have below average 0-60 times. Don't make it out to be something its not. 10 seconds is pathetic in the realm of perfomance nowadays. Average mini vans will beat you if they tried. We should at least enjoy the seamless strong acceleration a electic motor enjoys from 0 RPM. All the other manufacturers do...why doesn't Ford? Is it to cover up the torque steerr?

Your observations from the NHTSA test do not quantify the CG comparisons between the 2 vehicles. Because one car has a 4 star rating in the rollover test means it has a worse CG rating than a 5 star rating? Bet if you consulted the NHTSA you would find there is more to it than the CG. I shouldn't even have to explain this to you. (the LEAF is softer sprung).

The Focus chirps its tires easily when pulling out of a driveway (when you don't want it to) , but has no meaningful acceleration up to 30mph, how does that demonstrate powerful acceleration?

The absurdity of this is beyond comprehension. Back up your finding with facts, like I have, not just opinions.

So I guess the fact that the LEAF outsold the Focus 17:1 in May means there must be a lot of misinformed stupid people that like ugly cars out there.

FYI: Here is what a tune only AMG E63 (Or M5) will do to a Tesla with a 20mph slower trap speed. Even with a red light jump, the Tesla is quickly reeled in and passed. Over 1 second slower in the qtr mile is an eternity in racing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yui_fSj_QTU

If you would like to back up some of your asseritions with facts, do so. But your baseless opinions are kind of tiring.

 

[ELROY]

Unplugged:

Interesting reply from you in a steering complaint thread:

unplugged Post subject: Re: Anyone else find the steering to be too light?Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:53 pm

Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:53 pm
Posts: 300
Location: Orange County, California jmueller065 wrote:
I also notice a little torque steer in the ICE Focus.

That "torque steer" comes about as a result of having too much torque. Even though crippled a bit on off-the-line acceleration (software), the massive torque on the FFE is hard to control.

_________________

So the Focus has less torque than a LEAF, but is hard to control, when the LEAF has no problems controlling it even with instant throttle response??

And the complaint which closely parallels mine:


michael Post subject: Anyone else find the steering to be too light?Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:54 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:55 am
Posts: 317
Location: Los Angeles, CA My previous car was a 2012 Focus, and it had really good steering.

My impression of the steering in my 2013 FFE is:

1. Excessive torque steer (veers right under heavy acceleration) and

2. Too light in general; a little bit "darty" on the freeway.


Dartiness is often related to insufficient toe-in on the wheel alignment. Greater toe-in makes the car more stable but possibly increases rolling resistance. Anyone else have this impression? Anyone know about the alignment specs of the electric vs ICE versions? Could Ford have specified less toe-in to increase range at the cost of steering feel?


Josephus Post subject: Re: Anyone else find the steering to be too light?Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:29 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:45 pm
Posts: 36 I agree that the acceleration/steering feels "light" and requires extra attention. I would describe it as a general loss of traction.

1) Could the weight of the battery in the back cause more traction loss?

2) Would putting on after market tires that are not "low rolling resistence" fix this feel?

I notice the problem a LOT more in the rain and am seriously considering changing the tires as the wet season approaches in Portland. Any recommendations?

Any way to turn off "drift pull compensation" ?

 

[michael]

You're right I DID say that it was darty and had excessive torque steer, but since having it aligned, it's much much better.

Look at this video I took just today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CImUO9IcK0o&feature=youtu.be

I did a full throttle acceleration with hands entirely off the steering wheel. Note it stays dead centered and the car runs straight until I say "hands free hands free" and grab the steering wheel.

 

[ELROY]

You're right I DID say that it was darty and had excessive torque steer, but since having it aligned, it's much much better.

Look at this video I took just today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CImUO9IcK0o&feature=youtu.be

I did a full throttle acceleration with hands entirely off the steering wheel. Note it stays dead centered and the car runs straight until I say "hands free hands free" and grab the steering wheel.

Michael, you are my one ray of hope. I am hoping there is an improvement. Car has been there all day, but still no answers from the dealership. They said the tech is still working on it. Will see what tomorrow will bring. I wonder if they aligned yours to spec, or did some special alignment with more toe?

I really want to desire to drive this car. I mean otherwise I am stuck with it for another three years, lol.

 

[michael]

Hey...where are you? I live in West LA, work in Simi. You can try mine out no prob.

When I test drove one originally, I noticed the torque steer, mine had some but not as much, now barely detectable.


Here's a video about torque steer and it's diagnosis and correction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_M5tZfCHG0