triangles
Well-known member
Is there a way to turn off regen when I let off the accelerator other than flipping the shifter into neutral?
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Disable/turn off regen?
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WattsUp
Well-known member
So, no.triangles said:Is there a way to turn off regen when I let off the accelerator other than flipping the shifter into neutral?
Why would you want to do this? You're throwing all that kinetic energy away, and your overall range will be decreased accordingly.
hybridbear
Well-known member
Actually, shifting to neutral & coasting is better than just letting of the accelerator & letting the car regen. There are friction losses in the drivetrain, shifting to neutral reduces those.WattsUp said:So, no.triangles said:Is there a way to turn off regen when I let off the accelerator other than flipping the shifter into neutral?
Why would you want to do this? You're throwing all that kinetic energy away, and your overall range will be decreased accordingly.
GladeStorm
Well-known member
Ummm - I was under the impression that the drivetrain isn't physically disengaged in neutral. 'Neutral' can be simulated in an electric motor by removing the electrical load.
triangles
Well-known member
You are correct. There is no clutch or torque converter. The motor is always engaged with the wheels.
My MTX ICE car I do a fair amount of coasting with out the engine engaged as it is more efficient. It would be more efficient to freewheel when I let off the accelerator and then engage the regen when I touch the brakes. Otherwise I will have to use more battery power to get to the point I would have otherwise reached just rolling.
I suspect ford programmed the regen this way for the sheeple used to driving an ATX ICE. It simulates the engine brake effect of an ATX ICE. Same thing with the annoying creep when you take your foot off the brake while stopped.
My MTX ICE car I do a fair amount of coasting with out the engine engaged as it is more efficient. It would be more efficient to freewheel when I let off the accelerator and then engage the regen when I touch the brakes. Otherwise I will have to use more battery power to get to the point I would have otherwise reached just rolling.
I suspect ford programmed the regen this way for the sheeple used to driving an ATX ICE. It simulates the engine brake effect of an ATX ICE. Same thing with the annoying creep when you take your foot off the brake while stopped.
jachady
Well-known member
I have differing thoughts on this. When Ford went to the Aggressive Deceleration Fuel Shut-off on their ICE cars, I was able to get way better mileage while coasting in neutral. The ADFS basically shut the fuel pump off (saving fuel) but allowed the motor to still spin (causing drag). So I got around it by putting the car into neutral. I was able to get 42.2 mpg once on a 600 mile round trip in a 2011 Mercury Milan (rated at 33 mpg).
Now when it comes to the hybrids, the old system (NiHY) would regen anytime you let off the gas. In normal driving I always obtained better than the 41 city rating on the highway in the Fusion. Around here there are lots of rolling hills so coasting down them was regening the battery. Today in the new Fusion, it only regens when you are on the brakes and as such I dont' seem to build up enough battery for when I get into town. At this, I am just reaching the 44 mpg. I have started dragging the brakes everytime I get off the gas and can get the car up to 47 mpg pretty easy as I have more electricity available to me once I get into town.
I think I'll have to try a few things on the Focus. Yesterday I did a coast down from 80 mph and the car seemed to go on forever. I still had to hit the brakes way earlier than I would have expected with the regen drag. Time to go do some testing!!
Now when it comes to the hybrids, the old system (NiHY) would regen anytime you let off the gas. In normal driving I always obtained better than the 41 city rating on the highway in the Fusion. Around here there are lots of rolling hills so coasting down them was regening the battery. Today in the new Fusion, it only regens when you are on the brakes and as such I dont' seem to build up enough battery for when I get into town. At this, I am just reaching the 44 mpg. I have started dragging the brakes everytime I get off the gas and can get the car up to 47 mpg pretty easy as I have more electricity available to me once I get into town.
I think I'll have to try a few things on the Focus. Yesterday I did a coast down from 80 mph and the car seemed to go on forever. I still had to hit the brakes way earlier than I would have expected with the regen drag. Time to go do some testing!!
unplugged
Well-known member
Maybe so. But why go to the trouble of shifting into neutral when you can just use your right foot to cancel the regen in those instances when you want to coast? For instance, the Model S has very heavy regen you can dial into the car. (The regen is actually selectable.) Most owners use one pedal for driving, permitting such heavy regen that the car can stop without the brake. In the FFE, just place the accelerator pedal in a position that neither applies power, nor regen. There. You have it in neutral.hybridbear said:Actually, shifting to neutral & coasting is better than just letting of the accelerator & letting the car regen. There are friction losses in the drivetrain, shifting to neutral reduces those.
WattsUp said:Why would you want to do this? You're throwing all that kinetic energy away, and your overall range will be decreased accordingly.
Wouldn't less regen equal longer battery life? Unless there's a super capacitor hidden somewhere in the FFE.
hybridbear
Well-known member
Not true. The FFH regens anytime you take your foot off the accelerator. It doesn't get the spinning regen circle until you step on the brake, but the traction motor is consuming mechanical energy and converting it to electrical energy. Tests done using Torque Pro have determined that this regen is the least efficient of any mechanical-electrical energy conversion done by the electric motor and thus it should be avoided. I imagine that the same is true of the Focus Electric.jachady said:Today in the new Fusion, it only regens when you are on the brakes and as such I dont' seem to build up enough battery for when I get into town. At this, I am just reaching the 44 mpg. I have started dragging the brakes everytime I get off the gas and can get the car up to 47 mpg pretty easy as I have more electricity available to me once I get into town.
unplugged
Well-known member
I suppose if you don't charge your battery, you will get longer battery life. But unlike an ICE, where you can just drive your car and use gas, that's not an alternative for the FFE. You have to charge your battery sometime. Whether that is when you apply the brakes, or when you put it in the garage, you are using the same amount of electricity. The only real difference is that it is free when you use the brakes to recharge your FFE.kmaluo said:WattsUp said:Why would you want to do this? You're throwing all that kinetic energy away, and your overall range will be decreased accordingly.
Wouldn't less regen equal longer battery life? Unless there's a super capacitor hidden somewhere in the FFE.
As to whether adding charge to your FFE battery is less stressful at night in the garage or more stressful when coming to a stop, I think you won't find any evidence that one is better than the other.
unplugged
Well-known member
You will note that the regen circle on the FFE "spins" whenever you take your foot off the accelerator and the car is "coasting." You can eliminate this spin by holding the accelerator down a bit and actually coasting. But comparing a gas hybrid to an electric car's regen is a somewhat dicey. If you want to avoid regen on the FFH because it "should be avoided", I'm not sure how that relates to a pure electric car. But then again, I'm not sure what you are suggesting as to when to use regen on the FFE and when not to. I am getting the idea that you guys are displacing your theories on when to use regen on the FFE with those of the engineers who designed the car. Perhaps we are over-thinking this?hybridbear said:Not true. The FFH regens anytime you take your foot off the accelerator. It doesn't get the spinning regen circle until you step on the brake, but the traction motor is consuming mechanical energy and converting it to electrical energy. Tests done using Torque Pro have determined that this regen is the least efficient of any mechanical-electrical energy conversion done by the electric motor and thus it should be avoided. I imagine that the same is true of the Focus Electric.
WattsUp
Well-known member
No, I'm afraid you have some misconceptions. There are no gears or transmission in the FFE. As in virtually every EV, "shifting" to neutral is a purely electronic function. Nothing mechanical happens. No levels of friction are changed.hybridbear said:shifting to neutral & coasting is better than just letting of the accelerator & letting the car regen. There are friction losses in the drivetrain, shifting to neutral reduces those.
----
Edit:
TL;DR: With only "one moving part", EVs are so much simpler than traditional ICE vehicles. And so different that much of one's ICE knowledge and intuition no longer applies.
There is a permanent set of reduction gears in the FFE, but no traditional transmission (is what I meant to say). And since the gearing is fixed, it can simply be considered effectively part of the motor, as it is never disengaged, and is always connected to the wheels (whether the the motor is driving them, or they are driving the motor as a generator). Shifting the neutral simply removes all power/load from the motor/generator, placing it in an "electrically neutral" state, where it turns freely. This is all that happens when you "shift" into N in the FFE.
Likewise, when you "shift" between drive and reverse in the FFE, again absolutely nothing mechanical happens -- the electrical polarity is simply changed, which makes the motor/wheels turn in the one direction or the other. Knowing this, I have no qualms about instantly shifting directly from R back into D, say, when backing out of a parking spot. I know that nothing other than electro-magnetic forces are harmlessly "battling it out" inside the motor, causing it to spin in the desired direction as soon as the applied power can overcome the opposing inertia -- that is, there are no actual shifting gears to "crunch".
The only mechanical aspect of the drivetrain under control of the gear shifter in the FFE is the park setting (P). This setting actually does engage a lock within the gearing that prevents the entire drivetrain, and thus the wheels, from moving. As with any car, it is not advisable to attempt to move the shifter in the P position while the car is moving.
WattsUp
Well-known member
Yes, and if you want to maintain a set speed in the most efficient manner possible, use the cruise control. It does a much better job than your shaky human foot can do.unplugged said:In the FFE, just place the accelerator pedal in a position that neither applies power, nor regen. There. You have it in neutral.
WattsUp
Well-known member
Hmm, sounds like your FFE might need a software update.hybridbear said:The FFH regens anytime you take your foot off the accelerator. It doesn't get the spinning regen circle until you step on the brake
If your FFE doesn't show the spinning regen animation until you step on the brake, it sounds like your drivetrain software might be an older version. What you describe is how the car used to behave, but Ford updated the firmware (mid to late last year) to display the regen animation anytime power is not being applied to the motor (not just when braking).
If my FFE, as soon as I take my foot of the accelerator, the regen animation appears. Before the update, it would only appear when I pressed the brake. And to be clear, the software update only changed the appearance of the animation -- the car was doing regen at all the same times, even with the earlier firmware. I, for one, prefer the "more accurate" animation.
hybridbear
Well-known member
My post says FFH & not FFE. The Focus Electric came out before the Fusion Hybrid and actually has older dash software. The animations on the Fusion Hybrid have been refined and are more crisp & clear.WattsUp said:Hmm, sounds like your FFE might need a software update.hybridbear said:The FFH regens anytime you take your foot off the accelerator. It doesn't get the spinning regen circle until you step on the brake
If your FFE doesn't show the spinning regen animation until you step on the brake, it sounds like your drivetrain software might be an older version. What you describe is how the car used to behave, but Ford updated the firmware (mid to late last year) to display the regen animation anytime power is not being applied to the motor (not just when braking).
If my FFE, as soon as I take my foot of the accelerator, the regen animation appears. Before the update, it would only appear when I pressed the brake. And to be clear, the software update only changed the appearance of the animation -- the car was doing regen at all the same times, even with the earlier firmware. I, for one, prefer the "more accurate" animation.
Obviously. I am familiar with how cars work. I'm not an idiot. But by releasing that electric load you decrease the current flow leaving the HVB. The FFH planetary gearset design also doesn't disengage any gears when shifting to neutral, it just removes any electric load going to the motor. The same is true of the FFH with shifting to Reverse & Park. Only shifting to Park causes an actual mechanical aspect to lock the wheels.WattsUp said:No, I'm afraid you have some misconceptions. There are no gears or transmission in the FFE. As in virtually every EV, "shifting" to neutral is a purely electronic function. Nothing mechanical happens. No levels of friction are changed.hybridbear said:shifting to neutral & coasting is better than just letting of the accelerator & letting the car regen. There are friction losses in the drivetrain, shifting to neutral reduces those.
----
Edit:
TL;DR: With only "one moving part", EVs are so much simpler than traditional ICE vehicles. And so different that much of one's ICE knowledge and intuition no longer applies.
There is a permanent set of reduction gears in the FFE, but no traditional transmission (is what I meant to say). And since the gearing is fixed, it can simply be considered effectively part of the motor, as it is never disengaged, and is always connected to the wheels (whether the the motor is driving them, or they are driving the motor as a generator). Shifting the neutral simply removes all power/load from the motor/generator, placing it in an "electrically neutral" state, where it turns freely. This is all that happens when you "shift" into N in the FFE.
Likewise, when you "shift" between drive and reverse in the FFE, again absolutely nothing mechanical happens -- the electrical polarity is simply changed, which makes the motor/wheels turn in the one direction or the other. Knowing this, I have no qualms about instantly shifting directly from R back into D, say, when backing out of a parking spot. I know that nothing other than electro-magnetic forces are harmlessly "battling it out" inside the motor, causing it to spin in the desired direction as soon as the applied power can overcome the opposing inertia -- that is, there are no actual shifting gears to "crunch".
The only mechanical aspect of the drivetrain under control of the gear shifter in the FFE is the park setting (P). This setting actually does engage a lock within the gearing that prevents the entire drivetrain, and thus the wheels, from moving. As with any car, it is not advisable to attempt to move the shifter in the P position while the car is moving.
What I'm saying is that electric motors have lower efficiency in some situations. Just as a hybrid uses the generator motor to place a load on the ICE to make it more efficient you can make the electric motor more efficient in an EV by maximizing the time it spends operating in its most efficient region. Owners of the Fusion Hybrid & Energi have proven that letting the car coast and regen at a low load is the least efficient way to store electrical energy in the battery. At that load level the electric motor is not efficient when compared to braking near the maximum charge limit of the HVB.unplugged said:You will note that the regen circle on the FFE "spins" whenever you take your foot off the accelerator and the car is "coasting." You can eliminate this spin by holding the accelerator down a bit and actually coasting. But comparing a gas hybrid to an electric car's regen is a somewhat dicey. If you want to avoid regen on the FFH because it "should be avoided", I'm not sure how that relates to a pure electric car. But then again, I'm not sure what you are suggesting as to when to use regen on the FFE and when not to. I am getting the idea that you guys are displacing your theories on when to use regen on the FFE with those of the engineers who designed the car. Perhaps we are over-thinking this?hybridbear said:Not true. The FFH regens anytime you take your foot off the accelerator. It doesn't get the spinning regen circle until you step on the brake, but the traction motor is consuming mechanical energy and converting it to electrical energy. Tests done using Torque Pro have determined that this regen is the least efficient of any mechanical-electrical energy conversion done by the electric motor and thus it should be avoided. I imagine that the same is true of the Focus Electric.
Even without logging data you can prove this by watching the kWh going into the battery on the trip meter. Starting with the same amount of kinetic energy you'll find that more electrical energy is stored in the battery when braking near the max charge limit rather than just taking your foot off the gas and letting the car gradually coast down to 0 MPH.
unplugged said:I suppose if you don't charge your battery, you will get longer battery life. But unlike an ICE, where you can just drive your car and use gas, that's not an alternative for the FFE. You have to charge your battery sometime. Whether that is when you apply the brakes, or when you put it in the garage, you are using the same amount of electricity. The only real difference is that it is free when you use the brakes to recharge your FFE.
Dude, there's no such thing as free energy!
You used energy from the battery to get up to speed/up the hill you're now going down. Why would you then use the convert that kinetic energy back to electrical? (unless you're coming to a complete stop/need to slow down)
Electricity -> Kinetic = Energy loss
Electricity -> Kinetic -> Electricity = MORE ENERGY LOSS.
Yes, you can balance the gas pedal to make the car “neutral” but the sweet spot is super tiny and a total PITA when you move your foot 1cm in either direction it messes it up. That's why people want a regenless mode.
Just because the indicator has stopped spinning does not mean that there isn't a small amount of regen occurring. I've heard it while driving.
Also, cruise control is very inefficient because of this. I got an average of 150Wh/mi on my trip from Atlanta to Charlotte (300 miles) by augmenting cruise control with a slight application of the throttle so that it would not steal my kinetic energy by regening.
hybridbear
Well-known member
Exactly!! I do the same thing with the cruise control so that the car won't steal kinetic energy to regen. I do this is both the Focus Electric & in the Fusion Hybrid. So far since we got the FFE my wife has driven 226 miles according to MFM at 219 Wh/mi. I've driven 447 miles at 201 Wh/mi including a lot more freeway miles than she has driven. As far as MFM is concerned my driving style is more "zippy" and less "zen" than hers but my driving is still more efficient because I've studied how our Fusion Hybrid works and thus have a better understanding of how to drive efficiently. One way I do that is by getting the most bang for my buck with the kinetic energy the car has when in motion by avoiding things like the light regen. A Fusion Energi owner has determined that regen at that level is less than 70% efficient at converting kinetic energy to electrical energy compared to about 95-97% efficiency when braking near the max charge limit.scoops said:unplugged said:I suppose if you don't charge your battery, you will get longer battery life. But unlike an ICE, where you can just drive your car and use gas, that's not an alternative for the FFE. You have to charge your battery sometime. Whether that is when you apply the brakes, or when you put it in the garage, you are using the same amount of electricity. The only real difference is that it is free when you use the brakes to recharge your FFE.
Dude, there's no such thing as free energy!
You used energy from the battery to get up to speed/up the hill you're now going down. Why would you then use the convert that kinetic energy back to electrical? (unless you're coming to a complete stop/need to slow down)
Electricity -> Kinetic = Energy loss
Electricity -> Kinetic -> Electricity = MORE ENERGY LOSS.
Yes, you can balance the gas pedal to make the car “neutral” but the sweet spot is super tiny and a total PITA when you move your foot 1cm in either direction it messes it up. That's why people want a regenless mode.
Just because the indicator has stopped spinning does not mean that there isn't a small amount of regen occurring. I've heard it while driving.
Also, cruise control is very inefficient because of this. I got an average of 150Wh/mi on my trip from Atlanta to Charlotte (300 miles) by augmenting cruise control with a slight application of the throttle so that it would not steal my kinetic energy by regening.
WattsUp
Well-known member
Nobody called you an idiot.hybridbear said:Obviously. I am familiar with how cars work. I'm not an idiot.
How you "hear" posts is completely up to you. Text may not convey the original writer's tone very well. So, err on the side of assuming that most people here are trying to have an honest, helpful, and civil conversation.
WattsUp
Well-known member
Apologies, easy to miss in a forum entirely about the FFE.hybridbear said:My post says FFH & not FFE.
unplugged said:I suppose if you don't charge your battery, you will get longer battery life. But unlike an ICE, where you can just drive your car and use gas, that's not an alternative for the FFE. You have to charge your battery sometime. Whether that is when you apply the brakes, or when you put it in the garage, you are using the same amount of electricity. The only real difference is that it is free when you use the brakes to recharge your FFE.kmaluo said:WattsUp said:Why would you want to do this? You're throwing all that kinetic energy away, and your overall range will be decreased accordingly.
Wouldn't less regen equal longer battery life? Unless there's a super capacitor hidden somewhere in the FFE.
As to whether adding charge to your FFE battery is less stressful at night in the garage or more stressful when coming to a stop, I think you won't find any evidence that one is better than the other.
Constantly alternating the flow of energy in a battery will lesson it's life. It may not be obviously perceivable. Some EV makers are looking into Super Capacitors to buffer the temporary energy shifts to protect the battery from having to do it.
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