2015 FFE changes.....will they kill the electric car?

[NightHawk]

Each year, an increasing requirement of ZEV sales is mandated by California and nine other states. This ZEV requirement cannot be fulfilled by PHEVs or hybrids.

I believe hydrogen fuel cell vehicles also meet the requirement, that appears to be what Toyota is switching to now that they discontinued their RAV4-EV for 2015.

 

[EVA]

Oh, ouch - boy I am not a lover of PHEV (can't remember what somebody called them, range extended gasoline cars). That is just the totally wrong direction. At least for me. PHEV gets the worst of all worlds - complicated gas engine that has to be maintained (for that one time when I might want to go farther) and an electric motor with the batteries. In what universe that makes sense is beyond me.

Three cars in our house - two BEV and one ICE. I doubt I'll ever buy another car with a gasoline engine in it.

From what I've read, Tesla is going to get a boat load of credits for the battery swap program. Certainly not enough for Ford, but more all the same.

 

[hybridbear]

This issue of Ford continuing to sell electric vehicles shouldn't even be up for discussion. By 2025, automakers MUST build 800,000 zero emission vehicles PER YEAR in the U.S. alone. Ford is, depending on who's counting, the #4 or #5 automaker in the world by volume. Ford has NO choice but to build EVs. This isn't a question of interest. The CARB ZEV compliant states make up more than 40 percent of sales in the U.S. To suggest that Ford will decide to let an EV model fade away isn't in the cards.

Each year, an increasing requirement of ZEV sales is mandated by California and nine other states. This ZEV requirement cannot be fulfilled by PHEVs or hybrids. And no, Ford cannot buy enough ZEV credits from Tesla to equal the amount of mandated sales necessary under the CARB mandates. Tesla simply doesn't build enough cars to sell that amount of necessary credits.

Ford is into EVs for the long term. I don't like their lack of marketing. I don't like the fact that they don't produce the amount of vehicles that Nissan does. I don't like the lack of dealer support. But there is simply no way Ford is leaving the EV market. They can't.

When Ford sells Focus Electrics in non-CARB states, like Minnesota, do those sales count toward the CARB requirements? Or are those requirements for sales in CARB states only?

 

[Rogerschro]

My suspicions on why Ford is not trying too hard to push it's Focus electric car right now is that they understand the limitations of it. It fulfills a need temporarily, and, if not economically feasible on it's own, does help meet requirements. It also serves as a test bed for public acceptance of size and performance standards. We hear the rumors of better battery tech just around the corner, longer mileage and faster charge rates all at a more affordable cost. Ford knows this even better and choses to limit the current production because the FFE will be supplanted by a far superior car in a Few years or so. Rather than invest in a car that doesn't gain them profit, and will be effectively obsolete in a short period of time, I think they are concentrating on new tech and a dedicated platform that will serve the small, intermediate, full-size and SUV platforms with minimal cross platform adaptation. It really makes more sense to do it that way, save money for development rather than spend it on a soon to be obsolete platform that has limited future support or upgradeability. Having said all that I do still love my Focus and intend to keep it for a very long time. (perhaps trade the C-Max for a long range electric when the tech catches up to the idea. )

 

[unplugged]

When Ford sells Focus Electrics in non-CARB states, like Minnesota, do those sales count toward the CARB requirements? Or are those requirements for sales in CARB states only?

Sales for ZEVs only count in the state they were purchased. For instance, California has a percentage of sales requirement for all major manufacturers. Since Ford is the top or near the top sales in California, that percentage is based upon California sales only. So even if Ford was the last place manufacturer nationally, Ford would still have to produce the most EVs in California because it is #1 in sales in California. And, of course, only ZEV sales in California would count toward Ford's mandate in California.

 

[unplugged]

My suspicions on why Ford is not trying too hard to push it's Focus electric car right now is that they understand the limitations of it. It fulfills a need temporarily, and, if not economically feasible on it's own, does help meet requirements. It also serves as a test bed for public acceptance of size and performance standards. We hear the rumors of better battery tech just around the corner, longer mileage and faster charge rates all at a more affordable cost. Ford knows this even better and choses to limit the current production because the FFE will be supplanted by a far superior car in a Few years or so. Rather than invest in a car that doesn't gain them profit, and will be effectively obsolete in a short period of time, I think they are concentrating on new tech and a dedicated platform that will serve the small, intermediate, full-size and SUV platforms with minimal cross platform adaptation. It really makes more sense to do it that way, save money for development rather than spend it on a soon to be obsolete platform that has limited future support or upgradeability. Having said all that I do still love my Focus and intend to keep it for a very long time. (perhaps trade the C-Max for a long range electric when the tech catches up to the idea. )

Good analysis. I would also add that because Ford did not design or implement the drivetrain for the FFE, Ford's heart is not in pushing large amounts of sales. Once the next generation of the FFE comes along, I would expect it to be solely within the Ford family and would expect it to be fully supported.

 

[hybridbear]

My suspicions on why Ford is not trying too hard to push it's Focus electric car right now is that they understand the limitations of it. It fulfills a need temporarily, and, if not economically feasible on it's own, does help meet requirements. It also serves as a test bed for public acceptance of size and performance standards. We hear the rumors of better battery tech just around the corner, longer mileage and faster charge rates all at a more affordable cost. Ford knows this even better and choses to limit the current production because the FFE will be supplanted by a far superior car in a Few years or so. Rather than invest in a car that doesn't gain them profit, and will be effectively obsolete in a short period of time, I think they are concentrating on new tech and a dedicated platform that will serve the small, intermediate, full-size and SUV platforms with minimal cross platform adaptation. It really makes more sense to do it that way, save money for development rather than spend it on a soon to be obsolete platform that has limited future support or upgradeability. Having said all that I do still love my Focus and intend to keep it for a very long time. (perhaps trade the C-Max for a long range electric when the tech catches up to the idea. )

Good analysis. I would also add that because Ford did not design or implement the drivetrain for the FFE, Ford's heart is not in pushing large amounts of sales. Once the next generation of the FFE comes along, I would expect it to be solely within the Ford family and would expect it to be fully supported.

What? Who designed & implemented the drivetrain?

 

[WattsUp]

... because Ford did not design or implement the drivetrain for the FFE, Ford's heart is not in pushing large amounts of sales.

What? Who designed & implemented the drivetrain?

It was Magna International.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/autos/ford_electric/index.htm
http://www.autonews.com/article/20110801/OEM01/308019963/how-magnas-electrified-focus-wowed-ford

For more, just Google "ford focus electric magna".

 

[hybridbear]

... because Ford did not design or implement the drivetrain for the FFE, Ford's heart is not in pushing large amounts of sales.

What? Who designed & implemented the drivetrain?

It was Magna International.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/autos/ford_electric/index.htm
http://www.autonews.com/article/20110801/OEM01/308019963/how-magnas-electrified-focus-wowed-ford

For more, just Google "ford focus electric magna".

Fascinating!! I had no idea. Smart negotiating on Ford's part to not want exclusivity which kept their costs down.

You would almost think that since Ford had lower development costs that they would want to push sales because they could make more profit more quickly since there are less development costs to need to recoup.

 

[michael]

I agree.

There are some "purists" who deride Ford for not doing the work in-house, but I see no fault in letting experts in the field do the design.

Similarly, there are "purists" who deride any "compliance car". I believe that any compliance car is an EV on the road that would not otherwise have been.

Let the car maker design the electronics and build from scratch, what do you get? The Leaf!

 

[jmueller065]

The LEAF wasn't built from scratch, it was prototyped in the Versa and was developed from there:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

The truly from scratch EV is the Model S.

 

[v_traveller]

The LEAF wasn't built from scratch, it was prototyped in the Versa and was developed from there:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Might be fine to say here, but I'd suggest not stating that on a LEAF forum:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1421

According to that crowd, the EV-12 was a LEAF platform with a Versa body.

Some older literature on the Nissan Global website also claims that the LEAF's platform is designed specifically for EVs.

 

[EVA]

Michael is right to a certain extent - the Leaf is built on a dedicated production line, so it is more or less built from scratch. Ford took, what I think, a much smarter approach. Figure out how to build on the same line and reduce investment that way.

BMW did the same thing as Nissan - the i3 is built on its own line - no sharing of production lines for that car either.

And Renault's Zoe is built on the Leaf platform. So Nissan is trying to milk that development for as much as they can.

 

[EVA]

Sorry for a slight diversion in this thread - since the mention of Magna came up, I figured I could ask the question here.

I drove past a Magna Powertrain Plant this week. Does anybody know if the FFE drive train is manufactured in the Magna Powertrain plant in Muncie, Indiana?

Google Map link:
https://goo.gl/maps/KHFlJ

 

[WattsUp]

I drove past a Magna Powertrain Plant this week.

Sadly, looking at the Google satellite view or Street View images, there doesn't appear to be a single EV in the Magna parking lot (plenty of pick-up trucks, tho). Nor could I see any charging stations.

 

[jmueller065]

The Magna location with the charging stations is Magna Electric Vehicles in Auburn Hills, MI. It is an engineering office and where the FFE drivetrain was developed. Not sure where it is manufactured.
http://www.magna.com/capabilities/hybrid-electric-vehicles-systems

The building they used to be at, in Troy, MI had two Chargepoint stations in front of them (one of which I used at one point for a longer-than-battery-range drive).

 

[EVA]

I drove past a Magna Powertrain Plant this week.

Sadly, looking at the Google satellite view or Street View images, there doesn't appear to be a single EV in the Magna parking lot (plenty of pick-up trucks, tho). Nor could I see any charging stations.

Oh WattsUp you don't know the half of it. Muncie, IN has three charging stations (give or take a few) on PlugShare - it is a wasteland for electric cars. I think all of them are Nissan or Chevy dealers. Ball State University comes up as one of the most energy efficient schools in the country. They have a couple of charging stations - 110V outlets in parking garages. It drives me crazy.

So of course, the factory would have pickup trucks in it and no charging stations! Nobody has electric cars there. Even if they happen to build the drive train for the FFE.