TareqAwad
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 2:54 pm

can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC charger

Wed May 03, 2017 3:38 pm

hi all

FFE FROM 2012 AT 2016 with 23kw battery , can replace old battery by 33kw for FFE 2017
with the same AC charger 6.6kw/h , and update system for read new batter and connect the same cool system in new 33kw ?
Image


if we can not ( we can add 7.6kw battery for c-max in back care FFE with fan cool ?
Last edited by TareqAwad on Thu May 25, 2017 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

triangles
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Thu May 04, 2017 7:22 am

I doubt anyone would be able to answer that for you. Nobody knows what the differences are between the two batteries. I think a new 33.5kWh battery would be very expensive. Supposedly the 33.5kWh battery is actually lighter than the 23kWh battery. There's no reason the old charger wouldn't work with the 33.5kWh battery. I would assume the charger has not changed but I don't know for sure. It kind of sounds like they just tweaked the old pack for weight savings and put in higher capacity cells that are roughly the same form factor but like anything on this topic, it's all just speculation. It sure would be interesting to see if you could just drop a 33.5kWh pack in place of the 23kWh pack.
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

EVA
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:10 pm
Location: Chicago Area

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Thu May 04, 2017 10:13 pm

Triangles - the 2017 have CCS - so the charger is different, it has to be to handle the higher power.

Absolutely correct about nobody knows if the battery would fit. You'd probably have to wait a year before somebody got their hands on one. The only reasonable way to buy a 2017 battery would be from a car that was in an accident and was a total loss from the insurance company. That would be really hard to find - just about like finding a battery for the pre-2017 cars in a junk yard or at auction.
2014 Platinum White FFE (Turning in mid Dec. 2016 25,000 miles)
2013 Ingot Silver FFE
2012 Titanium ICE Focus
2014 Tesla Model S 85

triangles
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Fri May 05, 2017 7:47 am

EVA wrote:Triangles - the 2017 have CCS - so the charger is different, it has to be to handle the higher power.
Unless my understanding of L3 charging is wrong, the onboard charger only handles L1 and L2 charging. So it absolutely could be the same charger. In L3 charging the battery is directly connected to a stationary high current charger. Kind of like how Sefs made his own L3 charger by ganging up several salvage FFE chargers and then used CHAdeMO to interface it with the FFE battery.
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

EVA
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:10 pm
Location: Chicago Area

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Fri May 05, 2017 8:27 am

triangles wrote:
EVA wrote:Triangles - the 2017 have CCS - so the charger is different, it has to be to handle the higher power.
Unless my understanding of L3 charging is wrong, the onboard charger only handles L1 and L2 charging. So it absolutely could be the same charger. In L3 charging the battery is directly connected to a stationary high current charger. Kind of like how Sefs made his own L3 charger by ganging up several salvage FFE chargers and then used CHAdeMO to interface it with the FFE battery.
Oh shoot, sorry Triangles, you are probably right. They added a second charger. That makes sense - it would be cheaper to do that then redesign the current charger.

Well, unless there was a CCS package Ford purchased that would replace the original charger. The only way to know for sure would be the shop manual / electrical diagram (or the parts list).
2014 Platinum White FFE (Turning in mid Dec. 2016 25,000 miles)
2013 Ingot Silver FFE
2012 Titanium ICE Focus
2014 Tesla Model S 85

cutler03gt
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:29 pm
Location: Livonia, MI
Contact: Website

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Sat May 06, 2017 7:32 am

triangles wrote:I doubt anyone would be able to answer that for you. Nobody knows what the differences are between the two batteries. I think a new 33.5kWh battery would be very expensive. Supposedly the 33.5kWh battery is actually lighter than the 23kWh battery. There's no reason the old charger wouldn't work with the 33.5kWh battery. I would assume the charger has not changed but I don't know for sure. It kind of sounds like they just tweaked the old pack for weight savings and put in higher capacity cells that are roughly the same form factor but like anything on this topic, it's all just speculation. It sure would be interesting to see if you could just drop a 33.5kWh pack in place of the 23kWh pack.
Being that the Pre 2017 FFEs and the 2017 FFE now share the same battery pack part number, it's safe to say that it will be backward compatible physically. However, it's not safe to say that they would be software wise. Multiple modules would need to be updated by the dealer to account for the different capacity. I still haven't heard anything on that procedure since I posted this, so I'm not sure how involved it'll wind up being yet.

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/vi ... 672#p25814


You are also correct on the onboard charger. It is only involved with Level 1 and 2 charging. There's a new module under hood called the GFM2 (Generic Function Module 2) also called the EVCC (Electric Vehicle Communication Controller) that directs charging flow from the CCS connector to the battery, bypassing the onboard charger. Nothing to do with the new battery, just the new DC charging capability.
2017 Oxford White FFE
2017 Magnetic C-MAX Energi Titanium
2013 C-MAX Energi (lease returned 12/15)

triangles
Posts: 1069
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Tue May 09, 2017 7:23 pm

EVA I think you misunderstand how L3 charging works. Like with your tesla the chargers onboard the car handle all level 1 and level 2 charging. When you go to a super charger (L3) the super charger is the charger and the onboard charger does essentially nothing. Over simplified but basically a super charger is a bunch of the the onboard chargers ganged up and then directly connected to the tesla's battery.

The additional equipment on the FFE to enable CCS (L3) charging is not an additional charger it is basically a relay to directly connect the L3 charger to the FFE's battery. In addition there is some minor circuitry for the car to communicate to the L3 charger it is plugged into. I hope this helps instead of adding further confusion.

cutler03gt,
If they are physically compatible as the part numbers imply, it would probably still work even without any firmware updates to modules. I may be wrong but is my understanding that most battery related stuff determining battery SOC, etc. is done by measuring voltages and/or measuring battery internal resistance. Any battery related bits of code that have GOM like functions may be off or yield strange results but the car should still function normally and be able to use the whole increased battery capacity. If it isn't coded poorly after a few charge cycles the software should adapt to the new capacity.

Now before you get too excited that was a whole metric crap load of speculation on my part. Based mostly on my knowledge of industrial equipment that do some of the same stuff that the systems on the car does. Oh I'm also making the assumption that battery voltage is the same between the two packs. If it's not then that sure does throw a wrench into the works.

Who knows maybe one of us will will find out over the next few years if someone has a battery pack failure and their pack is replaced under warranty. Then again I wouldn't put it past Ford to software limit the new pack to emulate the old 23kWh pack.
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

cutler03gt
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:29 pm
Location: Livonia, MI
Contact: Website

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Fri May 12, 2017 4:03 am

triangles wrote: Who knows maybe one of us will will find out over the next few years if someone has a battery pack failure and their pack is replaced under warranty. Then again I wouldn't put it past Ford to software limit the new pack to emulate the old 23kWh pack.
Someone on the Facebook group for FFE Owners just had his battery fail in his 2013. They put in a 2017 battery under warranty. Ford is sending out a Field Service Engineer (my previous position) to the dealer to do the calibration updates. It looks like they haven't setup a method of doing so at the dealer level yet.
2017 Oxford White FFE
2017 Magnetic C-MAX Energi Titanium
2013 C-MAX Energi (lease returned 12/15)

jjsv1
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:50 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Fri May 12, 2017 1:28 pm

I saw that also. Talk about a best case scenario. Even if they only enable the pack to work at 23kwh.
'13 FFE 36,000 Miles w/15 Kwh left

Omen87
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:31 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Re: We can replace 23kw battery by new 33kw wiht same AC cha

Fri May 12, 2017 4:20 pm

cutler03gt wrote:
triangles wrote: Who knows maybe one of us will will find out over the next few years if someone has a battery pack failure and their pack is replaced under warranty. Then again I wouldn't put it past Ford to software limit the new pack to emulate the old 23kWh pack.
Someone on the Facebook group for FFE Owners just had his battery fail in his 2013. They put in a 2017 battery under warranty. Ford is sending out a Field Service Engineer (my previous position) to the dealer to do the calibration updates. It looks like they haven't setup a method of doing so at the dealer level yet.
brb, googling how to sabotage lithium ion batteries without killing myself...









/s







...maybe
2012 Oxford White Focus Electric

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