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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:12 am
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Hi, I'm new to the FFE discussions and am working on purchasing a 2017 and would like to understand the pro's and cons of liquid cooling vs air cooling like the VW eGolf uses. I live in Ottawa and our winters are long and on the cold side. What would work best in this kind of climate?

rgds


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:31 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Central Kansas
The FFE uses a liquid active cooling sytem. If it is cold outside and your car is plugged it it will heat and circulate the coolant around the battery to keep the battery at a more appropriate temperature. And vice versa if it is very hot it will circulate coolant to try and pull some heat away from the battery to keep it happy. The cold doesn't really damage the battery, but it is much less efficient when it is cold so you will see less range even if you were to not use the cabin heater.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
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Location: Toledo, Ohio
Cold in and of itself will not harm a lithium ion battery. Charging a lithium ion battery in sub zero temps (Celsius) however can cause permanent battery damage. I am going to go out on a limb and assume the VW has battery heaters that warm the battery before charging. While I don't know under what conditions it happens, I do know the FFE's battery thermal management heats the battery when it's cold out. I'm would hope both Ford and VW are smart enough to warm the battery before allowing it to charge in sub zero temperatures.

Since you are not in a hot climate there isn't any advantage to the FFE's battery thermal management unless you plan to DC fast charge (L3). This is because heat can be very bad for a lithium ion battery. I don't pretend to understand how, I just know that above a certain temperature the hotter a battery gets the more damage it incurs. L3 charging produces a lot of heat in the battery. Again I am speculating but I would think VW would monitor battery temp and slow down the L3 charging as the battery heats up. Wait I am assuming the VW has L3 charging capabilities...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:10 pm
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Location: Chicago Area
Maybe VW is smarter than Nissan, or learned the lesson on how to manage lithium ion batteries without active temperature management. Somehow I doubt that sincerely.

BMW, Tesla, and Ford all opted to use active temperature management for their batteries. Nissan used air cooling. The first generation of Leaf had a horrible battery degradation problem. Nissan may have solved the problem. But honestly - the biggest electric car manufacturer and two other use active management. Nobody ever talks about battery degradation in a Tesla. There is some talk about some level of degradation here (although my personal experience, it doesn't exist). But everybody talks about it chez Nissan.

Your call - hitch a ride to air cooling. I'd probably pass on that.

You'll still end up with heat in the summer - you have days in the 80 or 90s. That's enough to activate active cooling while charging.

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2014 Platinum White FFE (Turning in mid Dec. 2016 25,000 miles)
2013 Ingot Silver FFE
2012 Titanium ICE Focus
2014 Tesla Model S 85


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:55 am
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
It's not only the overall temperature but also the possibility of local hotspots in the pack. Liquid is better.

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2013 FFE Returned after 3 years with 52,000 miles and battery down to 15.2 kWh
2014 Volt returned with 43,000 miles
2014 Volt 26,000 miles
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327
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