Car Charging Etiquette! :D

Back to the topic: I think that a lot of charging issues could be resolved by implementing one or both of these items: 1) Parking at EV chargers is limited to 3 hours. and/or 2) All chargers cost a nominal fee of $1 per hour. (You'd be surprised at how staying for $5 at a parking space will free it up.)

unplugged said:

Back to the topic: I think that a lot of charging issues could be resolved by implementing one or both of these items: 1) Parking at EV chargers is limited to 3 hours. and/or 2) All chargers cost a nominal fee of $1 per hour. (You'd be surprised at how staying for $5 at a parking space will free it up.)

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I like the idea that pay-for stations keep charging so long the car remains connected. That way, people will have a hard monetary incentive to return quickly once charging is complete. Though, I guess this doesn't necessarily provide an incentive to also move out of the spot. Also, what to do about free stations?

Alas... it would seem the only incentive that would work in both cases in the threat of a citation or tow-away (and real enforcement). Not to mention the third case of ICE occupation.

I also wish EV spots would not be placed in the most prime parking locations (e.g., near entrances, etc.). I would gladly walk from the back of the parking lot if it means that selfish/ignorant/stupid ICE drivers will be more likely to stay out of the EV spots.

Oh I hate the analogy, but it could be treated like handicap spots. That would at least solve the ICE cars not parking there.

There sure are a lot of scenarios to think of, and I'm not sure anybody will come up with a reasonable solution. Free electricity, rotten or prime parking spot, pay to get into the garage in the first place, pay for the electricity, pay a premium to stay in the spot beyond full charge... Things seem to work pretty well right now. With a lot more electrics on the way, it will get ugly.

By the way, in Chicago if the surcharge was $1 an hour to stay in the parking spot (no other cost); every single car in the city would use that spot. Street parking is way way more expensive than a $1 an hour.

EVA said:

By the way, in Chicago if the surcharge was $1 an hour to stay in the parking spot (no other cost); every single car in the city would use that spot. Street parking is way way more expensive than a $1 an hour.

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I think unplugged's idea was to continue to charge (via the connected station) $1 to EVs that remain connected after charging has finished.

But, that policy would be irrelevant to ICE vehicles who might be so inclined to park in such an EV spot... they could still just (rudely) park for free. There would be no way to charge the ICE.

Which, again, leads to parking enforcement of some kind.

WattsUp said:

But, that policy would be irrelevant to ICE vehicles who might be so inclined to park in such an EV spot... they could still just (rudely) park for free. There would be no way to charge the ICE.

Which, again, leads to parking enforcement of some kind.

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In California ICE are already subject to a ticket for using an EV spot. Hopefully, enforcement will be more consistent than it is right now. Some cities use an iron fist, like Santa Monica. Other cities, like Palm Springs, don't appear to care.

The GE WattStation chargers that the Irvine Company uses continue to collect a fee so long as you're connected, I think. Parking in a space after charging to full should be cited if parked longer than 3 hours in any case. I just think we will have to have time limits at EV parking. This is already done in Santa Monica, although they use 4 hours maximum as the limit. At least it keeps someone from parking there all day.

A sliding scale may be more effective to get EVs to move (after 1 hour price goes up 2x, 2 hours another 2x, etc.). Or at least to unplug.

In addition, putting the EV parking spots farther out may be more expensive for the installer since they'd have to run the power out there (granted if it is a lighted lot there probably is power out there, but a small business owner may not have that option).

There are many municipalities that also ticket for parking in an EV spot--although I'm sure its not enforced nearly enough. Even though that ticketing could easily be automated.

EVA said:

...Things seem to work pretty well right now. With a lot more electrics on the way, it will get ugly.

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I don't think this problem will be as bad as everybody thinks. EVs will have increasingly larger batteries and range, alleviating the need to plug in so often.

hcsharp said:

EVA said:

...Things seem to work pretty well right now. With a lot more electrics on the way, it will get ugly.

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I don't think this problem will be as bad as everybody thinks. EVs will have increasingly larger batteries and range, alleviating the need to plug in so often.

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Good point, I also think once all car chargers can charge a car in 20 or so minutes (meaning not just tesla) it will also eliminate the habit of using charge spaces as parking spaces. I almost want them to be designed more to look like a gas station rather than a parking lot so people will get the point that it's temporary.

FlufferNew said:

I also think once all car chargers can charge a car in 20 or so minutes (meaning not just tesla) it will also eliminate the habit of using charge spaces as parking spaces. I almost want them to be designed more to look like a gas station rather than a parking lot so people will get the point that it's temporary.

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Maybe, maybe not. You are making the assumption that to be adopted by the mainstream EV's have to adopt the gas car model (e.g. gas stations on every corner).

Since everyone has electricity at their home, even EV's with 300 miles of range will still be able to "fill up" at home. The vast majority of EV owners, like today, will still probably charge up at home at night. The only real need for charging stations will be for quick charges for long distance driving.

Despite all the negative criticism of having to plug in at home people will realize how convenient that really is!

jmueller065 said:

FlufferNew said:

I also think once all car chargers can charge a car in 20 or so minutes (meaning not just tesla) it will also eliminate the habit of using charge spaces as parking spaces. I almost want them to be designed more to look like a gas station rather than a parking lot so people will get the point that it's temporary.

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Maybe, maybe not. You are making the assumption that to be adopted by the mainstream EV's have to adopt the gas car model (e.g. gas stations on every corner).

Since everyone has electricity at their home, even EV's with 300 miles of range will still be able to "fill up" at home. The vast majority of EV owners, like today, will still probably charge up at home at night. The only real need for charging stations will be for quick charges for long distance driving.

Despite all the negative criticism of having to plug in at home people will realize how convenient that really is!

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Not at all, I'm saying that designing charge spaces that look like parking spots, in actual parking lots, is kind of asking to be taken advantage of. Especially when it's free to just sit there. I think most people would like to just charge at home as well most of the time, but that's not really the point i'm getting to.

I don't think the concept of a charge station mirroring a traditional gas station is bad at all. It's a pretty efficient system, and I think it's more practical than having 2 Clipper Creeks at the back of a parking lot. A more commercial station only seems like a step forward in my opinion. So yes, stations that offer quick charging would obviously make EVs more mainstream. I don't see the issue.

I tried to charge up at a large mall. They have two Blink pay-for chargers. One was legitimately in use, but the other spot was occupied by a Volt not even plugged in. The Volt driver evidentially felt entitled to take up the close in spot simply by virtue of owning a (sort of) EV.

Needless to say I left a nastygram on his window, but so long as EV spots are in close, charging by the hour won't prevent entitled-feeling people from squatting at them any more than it will prevent icing.

This topic needs to be brought up again. Around these parts (Chicago land) , all of the charging stations always seem to be occupied by a Volt or a C-Max or other extended range vehicles.. I am hesitant about taking off on longer trips that would require a station as they rarely available. I personally, never charge at a public station unless it I NEED it. If I have enough juice to make it home I charge at home. In Illinois we have EV plates and extended range vehicles do not qualify for them. For a very good reason, they burn GAS..

http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/vehicles/license_plate_guide/electric_vehicle.html

I wonder who we need to bribe in Illinois government to require an EV plate to access EV chargers? Seems like a no brainer and think of all the revenue they can make by ticketing the ICEholes.

couple of definitions

VICED - ICE'D by a volt
ICEholes - rude drivers of cars with Internal Combustion Engines that take of EV spots.

Over on the Tesla forum this subject naturally comes up now and then. Tesla has a program where they offer a free charging station to qualified retail businesses and hotels if they will pay to install it. Since those chargers are usually 80A the question came up regarding how much new charging capacity can be installed at 80A a pop when the service to the building is usually limited. The best solution of course is give us more range so we don't need to plug in except at home.

As we approach (what I expect to be) the coming flood of EVs hitting the roads, it will become harder and harder to find an open charging station as destinations reach the limits of their electric service. The only solution will be "smart" EVSE management systems that control the available current at each station so the overall load is managed to allow the fastest charging possible to each car.

Max, Don't think there is anything in the world we can do about that. Wish there was, and I agree, a PHEV should move on. Sorry for this rant again - but it seems like the PHEV community feels like they are the electric car community. They've completely over run the My Ford Mobile discussion board. So I think when they see a charging port, they use it. Nothing in the world anybody can do about it.

Something will have to change as there are more electric cars on the road. It seems California is really wrestling with that problem. At some point, we will see the same thing in the Chicago area. The problem will get worse before it gets better.

EVA said:

it seems like the PHEV community feels like they are the electric car community.

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We should start referring to them as PHGVs -- "Plug-in Hybrid Gasoline Vehicles".

With their meager battery capacities, and ability to drive purely on gasoline, with no actual need to plug-in, the emphasis should be on the gasoline-burning aspect of their hybrid nature, not the electric part.

My viewpoint is a little self serving, since I also own Volts in addition to my FFE, but I would be willing to cut a little slack for Volts, since they can run 40 miles on pure electric power. Energi models less so...they are pretty feeble unless running the gas engine. And the plug in Prius I think is disgusting....just a means to get EV stickers and privileges without need to ever charge up their pitiful AA sized batteries.

I do think pure electrics should be given priority to charging stations over even Volts, since Volts can manage just fine on gasoline. Plus they take twice as long to charge due to their 3 kW chargers. In fact, if public charging costs more than $1/hour instead of being free, it's cheaper to run a Volt on gas than on paid electricity.

When you think about it, PHGV vehicles are twice the burden on the shared charging system as EVs, due to their slow charging rate.

I guess I have a different perspective owning both an EV & a PHEV. We have not yet used public charging in the Focus Electric and likely won't for a very long time. We have used free public charging stations many times in the Fusion Energi in order to complete a trip without using gasoline.

However, in MN I have never seen another EV plugged in at any public charging station anywhere. And I've been looking every time I go by one since long before we had our EV or PHEV. Mostly the spaces just get ICED. The free chargers we've used have been at Goodwill locations or at Byerly's (a local high-end grocery chain). Neither of those companies bothers to label the spaces as "EV parking only" so ICE vehicles frequently park in front of the chargers. As far as EVSE placement, I think both stores have done it correctly. The EVSEs are not installed in the best (closest) parking spaces nor are they in the worst (farthest away) parking spaces. Both stores have chosen to install their EVSE units where they're about in the middle as far as desirability of the spaces. However, this means that when the store is busy the spaces are often ICED.

We have no range anxiety in the Focus Electric. We have a lot of range anxiety when driving the Fusion Energi because of trying to not exceed its limited electric range unless we're going beyond the range of the Focus Electric. Thus we use public charging more in the Energi.

As far as charging speed and PHEVs blocking the spaces for longer, none of the public chargers we've used (3 Goodwill locations plus 1 Byerly's) have charged much faster than 2 kW. Goodwill installs GE Wattstations & Byerly's uses ChargePoint. That rate information is based on the readout on the charger of kW & time charging. The Energi charges at 3.3 kW and thus none of these stations have charged it as fast as they could. I want to try the same stations with the Focus Electric to see if they're just as slow with it.

I've only used public charging when I've had the need (need to top off because of a later trip, or need to charge up in order to return home). The Detroit area is almost exclusively covered by ChargePoint stations with a few companies simply installing a simple EVSE outside their business. Almost all of the public chargers in the area are free notable exceptions include chargers at a police station and a library in one city.

The majority of the chargers are rarely used: Whenever I've needed to charge the one I originally planned on has been available. I can think of only one instance when there was some concern about not being able to charge: On my way downtown in January refreshing the Chargepoint app to make sure one of the two chargers I wanted to charge at were still free. About 1/2 way there one was taken, fortunately the other was still available when I arrived. (I did have backup chargers in mind but those were about 1/2 mile away which would have made for a very cold walk.)

hybridbear said:

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We have no range anxiety in the Focus Electric. We have a lot of range anxiety when driving the Fusion Energi because of trying to not exceed its limited electric range unless we're going beyond the range of the Focus Electric. Thus we use public charging more in the Energi.

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This mentality is fairly pervasive among PHEV drivers. I applaud your strong desire to avoid burning gas. I certainly can't blame you for using stations that are almost never used, and therefore not really needed by other EVs. In the probable future when a lot more all-electric vehicles will need those stations, I'm curious how you will feel then. Or if you lived now in an area where there were a lot more EVs and not enough charging stations for everybody. I'm not criticizing your answer, whatever it is; I'm just curious.

Charging etiquette is a tricky subject. If a PHEV shows up and there are free stations, why shouldn't he plug in? Doing so will save him from burning gas and it doesn't appear at that moment that he's inconveniencing anybody with a stronger need. And even if he knowingly forced someone to wait an hour before they could go home as a result, who's to say his needs are less important than making you wait? I don't necessarily agree with those arguments and not implying hybridbear does either. I'm only saying it's not all clear cut and dry.

I wish there was an economic solution. For example you could bid on the use of a charging station ahead of time. Somebody who might be late picking their kids up from school might pay a higher price than a PHEV who only cares about no-gas bragging rights and less pollution. Kind of like spot prices on the electric grid. Don't worry I know this isn't feasible... just my thoughts.

hcsharp said:

hybridbear said:

...
We have no range anxiety in the Focus Electric. We have a lot of range anxiety when driving the Fusion Energi because of trying to not exceed its limited electric range unless we're going beyond the range of the Focus Electric. Thus we use public charging more in the Energi.

Click to expand...

This mentality is fairly pervasive among PHEV drivers. I applaud your strong desire to avoid burning gas. I certainly can't blame you for using stations that are almost never used, and therefore not really needed by other EVs. In the probable future when a lot more all-electric vehicles will need those stations, I'm curious how you will feel then. Or if you lived now in an area where there were a lot more EVs and not enough charging stations for everybody. I'm not criticizing your answer, whatever it is; I'm just curious.

Charging etiquette is a tricky subject. If a PHEV shows up and there are free stations, why shouldn't he plug in? Doing so will save him from burning gas and it doesn't appear at that moment that he's inconveniencing anybody with a stronger need. And even if he knowingly forced someone to wait an hour before they could go home as a result, who's to say his needs are less important than making you wait? I don't necessarily agree with those arguments and not implying hybridbear does either. I'm only saying it's not all clear cut and dry.

I wish there was an economic solution. For example you could bid on the use of a charging station ahead of time. Somebody who might be late picking their kids up from school might pay a higher price than a PHEV who only cares about no-gas bragging rights and less pollution. Kind of like spot prices on the electric grid. Don't worry I know this isn't feasible... just my thoughts.

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I wouldn't depend on public charging. For example, we'd like to take the Focus Electric on an upcoming trip to Rochester (about 85 miles one-way). There are EVSEs in the parking ramp we'll be using. The cost to use them would be less than the cost for gas in the Fusion Energi. However, without those stations we would be stranded in Rochester. For that very reason we will not take the Focus Electric. We don't want to be in a situation where we would need a public charge to get home.

We're considering using the Focus Electric for another trip that would be 50 miles one-way. On the way home we could stop and charge at a public charging station, but if that doesn't work we can also stop at my parents' house and charge for an hour maximum to get enough charge to get home. We wouldn't depend on public charging.

I know that emergencies can happen but I don't think that anyone should ever depend on public charging.

As a strategy for the future I believe more in PHEVs than BEVs. BEVs work great as a second car but not as the only car someone has. I don't know that BEVs will ever match the flexibility of ICE powered cars for long-distance travel. Tesla comes close with the SuperCharger network because there I would offset the time delay with the fact that the electricity is no additional charge. However, that still takes longer than a 10 minute gas station/bathroom stop which is usually about how long we take when doing road trips. In that sense I expect that PHEVs will become a common sight since they can drive electrically for most driving around town without placing any limits on road trips.