Live in CA, want a free Juicebox?

That is the headline of this article:
http://insideevs.com/live-california-want-free-juicebox/

If you meet some requirements...

I applied. Looks zero risk to put in application.

Lucky Californians...you get a state rebate in addition to the Federal rebate, you get solo carpool lane access and now you get a free L2 EVSE. It's just not fair

Trust me....we pay for it in other ways....

Until recently there was a little known deal in which the California Energy Commission would give out hundreds of free Aerovironment EVSE units, including installation every month. The value was several thousand dollars. Sadly that program has ended but it was a great deal for those who found out about it.

michael said:

Trust me....we pay for it in other ways....

Until recently there was a little known deal in which the California Energy Commission would give out hundreds of free Aerovironment EVSE units, including installation every month. The value was several thousand dollars. Sadly that deal has ended but it was a great deal for those who knew about it.

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Lol true. But I was thinking about the $2500 state rebate, even with your high electricity costs, $2500 would cover the per kWh cost difference for decades of electricity for an EV versus what it would cost in a place like MN.

hybridbear said:

michael said:

Trust me....we pay for it in other ways....

Until recently there was a little known deal in which the California Energy Commission would give out hundreds of free Aerovironment EVSE units, including installation every month. The value was several thousand dollars. Sadly that deal has ended but it was a great deal for those who knew about it.

Click to expand...

Lol true. But I was thinking about the $2500 state rebate, even with your high electricity costs, $2500 would cover the per kWh cost difference for decades of electricity for an EV versus what it would cost in a place like MN.

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You make me wonder what that costs in MN. Here in San Fran. bay area, am paying about 0.053 $/kWh for most of mine (and am selling the solar I generate at 0.40 $/kWh). Yes, it cost plenty to install the solar PV system, but works out OK.
What do you pay?

JTCalif said:

hybridbear said:

michael said:

Trust me....we pay for it in other ways....

Until recently there was a little known deal in which the California Energy Commission would give out hundreds of free Aerovironment EVSE units, including installation every month. The value was several thousand dollars. Sadly that deal has ended but it was a great deal for those who knew about it.

Click to expand...

Lol true. But I was thinking about the $2500 state rebate, even with your high electricity costs, $2500 would cover the per kWh cost difference for decades of electricity for an EV versus what it would cost in a place like MN.

Click to expand...

You make me wonder what that costs in MN. Here in San Fran. bay area, am paying about 0.053 $/kWh for most of mine (and am selling the solar I generate at 0.40 $/kWh). Yes, it cost plenty to install the solar PV system, but works out OK.
What do you pay?

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We pay about $0.115/kWh in the summer and $0.105/kWh in the winter. This is standard service with no TOU rates. My parents looked at TOU rates when they got their Energi but it didn't make sense since their daytime rate would have more than doubled to about $0.25/kWh and their off-peak rate wouldn't have dropped that much, only down to about $0.05/kWh.

However, MN is the first state to require all utilities to offer special TOU rates for EV owners so hopefully our electric utility will offer better EV TOU rates in the future. When my parents inquired 18 months ago the utility didn't have an EV TOU rate but just their standard TOU rate offering.

Actually, risk is my concern.

The Juicebox is not UL listed, and installing it will violate many local and state electrical codes, which will invalidate quite a lot of homeowners fire insurance policies.

I'm very careful with high power electricity; I actually design electrical control systems for a living. But my city explicitly requires UL listing for EVSEs so I can't install a Juicebox at any price. I was ready to buy two of them until it occurred to me to check for UL listing.

Electric Motor Werks said in the comments from that insideEVs blog post that they have started the UL listing process and intend to have it complete before shipping any units for this pilot program.

If you do participate in their program, check carefully with your city's permitting department and be sure there's a UL Listing sticker on the JuiceBox when it arrives.

Just to be picky...what is commonly called a "UL" listing is really a listing from SOME nationally recognized testing laboratory (NRTL) certifying that the device meets certain standards. UL is a specific private organization which tries to monopolize the listing business. ETL is another commonly used NRTL and there are others.

It's like Leaf. Most people think EV = Leaf and Tesla, but it isn't so.

Kakkerlak said:

If you do participate in their program, check carefully with your city's permitting department and be sure there's a UL Listing sticker on the JuiceBox when it arrives.

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From the article it appears that the Power Co. is installing these things, and using them as a power meter (and/or some grid demand control), in lieu of a new power feed and meter, to give you inexpensive TOU for Vehicle Charging. I doubt that the Power Co. would install something not to code.

I could be wrong, but this seems to be the driving force behind this. Power Co saving money, and the ability to manage (somewhat) grid demand. Which lower their costs significantly. Making power cheaper for everyone.

Now that I think about it, if the power company is the driving force, they are probably exempt from any listing requirements in the city building code. They can probably do whatever they think is safe and proper.

cwstnsko said:

On the posts over on InsideEVs, a rep of Juicebox has mentioned that UL listing is in the works for their next generation of EVSE, and they expect that model to be used with this program.

I'm still a bit surprised that the power co would buy into having the control and reporting of the EVSE go through Wi-Fi that is owned and controlled by the homeowner. It seems like they would want the EVSE to communicate through the grid like their meters do.

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But using the Wi-Fi is so much cheaper for them. And the homeowner has incentive to make sure the EVSE is reporting. As their bill goes down for every kWh that it reports. So they will make sure the Wi-Fi stays up and connected.

Ask any public utility vendor and they'll be super-clear: their responsibility ends at the service connection. If it's on your property, it's your responsibility and obligation to comply with all national, state, and local regulations and codes.

The way I read the story, PG&E's involvement is at the money level only. You sign up for their EVSE tariff program.

Electric Vehicle Werks is building the Juiceboxes. Customers are installing them. And OhmConnect is handling the data and controlling the Juiceboxes remotely.

Where the "free" part comes in is subsidies by the California Public Utilities Commission. It's part of a pilot program they've funded to see if EVSE's can be part of automated load balancing.

I think that's awesome.

Power company's will not install this non-approved device in California, and must have a building permit. If you do it on your own and have a fire, homeowners insurance will NOT cover it. When you sell, the device will be flagged, requiring you to replace with a approved device and a building permit. There is a lot of mis-information being posted about the juice box, which is nothing but a power connector for your charger.

evnut said:

Power company's will not install this non-approved device in California, and must have a building permit. If you do it on your own and have a fire, homeowners insurance will NOT cover it. When you sell, the device will be flagged, requiring you to replace with a approved device and a building permit. There is a lot of mis-information being posted about the juice box, which is nothing but a power connector for your charger.

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Yes, some of that misinformaton is contained in your post.

First, there is no "installation" of a Juicebox. (There is no need to hardwire the unit.) It is plugged in to a 240 volt receptacle. There is no need for a building permit except for the receptacle. What you plug in to that receptacle is your choice, not the power company's.

Second, a fire must be caused by the non-conforming product. Your homeowners can't simply claim that somewhere in the house you don't have an UL approved appliance. I know of some issues people have had about over-heated J1772 connectors with other EVSEs, but I have not heard of one single fire caused by any charging station. If you have different information, let us all know. Further, since the Juicebox is contained within an airtight, sealed aluminum box, it strains credulity to think that the box is going to melt and catch fire. But, hey, if you have an example of any fire caused by any EVSE, it would be nice to hear about it. (And forget about the Tesla garage fire. The Orange County Fire Authority found that the fire was caused away from the Tesla charging unit.)

Third, since no one is going to be selling their home with a portable charging station attached to it, your point about needing a permit isn't really an issue. Once again, the permit is for the outlet, not the EVSE.

I agree with unplugged about the permitting of the plug and not the box. I'm not sure your insurance company would refuse to pay because the device wasn't UL certified. I could see an issue if you had an un-permitted outlet that caused a fire or an issue with selling a home with electrical work without a permit. However, I personally wouldn't want to use a device that was not UL certified. I'm sure that even UL devices have had problems in the past and the likelihood of having a problem with the Juicebox is very low; however, with UL certification, you can rest a little easier knowing that someone actually checked.
Having UL certified a project myself, my impression is that UL considers the possibility of danger when things don't go as planned. They have drop tests and check afterward if any high voltage is exposed to a human finger. They run the device under and over voltage to ensure it doesn't cause harm. The components inside also need to be UL certified....the relays especially. If something goes wrong, can the outer casing be energized. If something burns up inside, would any melting or burning plastic be toxic.
I had a UL certified dishwasher that shorted in the control panel. A carbon path had somehow formed between the 120V terminals in the control panel. Luckily I was home and saw a bright flash from the kitchen. When I got to the dishwasher to unplug it from under the sink, it was actively arcing. That was on a 15 or 20A circuit breaker that did not trip (it didn't go over current). There was no dis-figuration on the outside and I didn't leave it plugged in to ensure that it was UL compliant, but I can imagine how much damage and heat 40A at 240V can do in a short amount of time; especially in an un-checked device.
Just my opinion...but like I said, I wouldn't expect much to go wrong with the Juicebox...it is just a pair of high voltage high current relays that are likely already UL certified.

The goal of the changes to the 2014 NEC Article 625.13 is to clarify language in that article and in other parts of the Code that could be interpreted to prohibit cord-and-receptacle installation of fixed-mounted EVSEs entirely, whether UL-listed or not.

The NEC, and California, wants EVSEs to be installable, easily, quickly, and safely. And that means allowing Level 2 EVSEs to be installed with cord-and-receptacle or with permanent hardwiring, and making sure the code is unambiguous so that all inspectors can understand and follow it. That's why there were Temporary Interim Amendments to Article 625.13 and they were adopted early in California.

So the problem's really at the local permitting level.

I don't think it passes the sniff test to say that a JuiceBox is a "portable" device if it's connected to a heavy duty receptacle for which you've signed up for a special utility tariff and installed locally networked monitoring hardware.

The way I see it, the risk you're taking by cord-connecting a non-UL-listed EVSE to a receptacle is if there were a fire involving the EVSE, your insurance would see that you never got a permit for an EVSE and that your EVSE is not UL-listed, which is required by your local code.

It's all a moot point if Electric Motor Werks gets them UL-listed before they start shipping them for this pilot program.

The idea that all electrical appliances need to be listed should be viewed in perspective with other equipment. Much of what is in many homes and businesses is unlisted.

For example, if you go to your local computer store and ask them to build you a computer from a case, motherboard, power supply, etc, the resulting computer is most definitely NOT listed. The same is true if you build it yourself. The fact that the power supply is probably listed does not convey listing to the assembly, any more than the use of listed components in an EVSE conveys listing to the EVSE.

I don't hear people worrying about the possibility that if their house burns down and they had a locally built (or home built) computer that their fire insurance would be invalid. Look around...I suspect you will find lots of things around your house that plug in and don't bear listing labels.

In case anybody wonders, that's why separate plug-in power supplies are so commonly used these days. Their use is different than the example above of a built-up computer.

michael said:

In case anybody wonders, that's why separate plug-in power supplies are so commonly used these days. Their use is different than the example above of a built-up computer.

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So, you're saying that it is easier (read: cheaper) for manufacturers to get their power supplies (wall warts) UL listed rather than the devices they plug into?

Not exactly. I'm saying is cheaper to buy listed made-in-China wall units then to get listing for their entire device. And for every product.

I'm looking at the power supply for my Dell computer. It's got like a dozen different approval markings (UL, CSA, TUV, etc etc etc) It's not made by Dell but by Delta Electronics and it's made in China.

The problems with listing don't end with getting the initial listing. The manufacturer gets periodic re-inspection of the finished goods to make sure they are continuing with the design as-listed. Plus they pay an ongoing fee to the listing agency.

It's a major hassle and a big expense, especially for a little company.