Value Charge Times ignored. Car starts charging immediately

I am posting this to see if anyone has had a similar situation occur with Value Charge with their FFE. Ours is a 2015 and this problem has happened three times now in the past few weeks. The symptom is that even though the car is set for Value Charge and the time is before the start time set in Value Charge, it starts charging as soon as the charging connection is made. When this happens, there appears to be no way to correct the problem. You can flip it to 'Charge Now' and back to Value Charge. You can get in a drive around the block, seemingly no matter what you do, it will still start charging immediately when the connector is plugged in.

We mentioned this problem to the dealer week before last and told them I had documented it in a YouTube video, but the dealer (Folsom Lake Ford, Folsom, CA) refused to look at the video and said they could do nothing unless they can duplicate it in their shop. Of course, they could not. It seems to happen in the evening when the car is 1/2 to 7/8 charged. I have never seen it happen when the car has less than 1/4 battery capacity left, which is typical on weekdays. It's the weekends when this is a problem.

Here is a link to my YouTube video documenting the problem: https://youtu.be/HXaZNZtcFiU

Even if Value Charge is enabled, if a full charge cannot be completed before the next GO Time at the time you plug the car in, it will start charging immediately. The "directive" for the car to be fully charged by the GO Time overrides any Value Charge period.

Also, are you charging at Level 1 or Level2?

Level 2

The Value Charge estimate before plugging in the charger was 29 minutes. The charge window is 1:00am to 7:00am, so that's not it. Thanks for the ideas, though.

Perhaps this post will help explain the behavior.

In winter our car usually begins "charging" immediately when we get home. This is because the HVB temp is too cold. The car thus turns on the HVB heating system & simultaneously charges the HVB to warm it up as quickly as possible. Once the HVB temp is "acceptable", the car stops charging, but it may continue to draw a small amount of power for other purposes.

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Do you have a way to monitor HVB temp?

If the HVB temp is below 50 F the car will begin charging immediately & will not stop until the HVB reaches 50 F.

OK. I think I get it now. So what is happening is that when it is below 50 degrees F ambient temperature and the car has been sitting for a while, the HVB temp falls below 50. Then when I plug in the level-2 charger outside of the Value Charge time window, the ring blinks around the circle and shows me the level of charge. Then, when the quarter ring signifying the next 25 percent to be charged starts pulsating, it is NOT actually starting the Value Charge cycle, it is simultaneously HEATING and PARTIALLY CHARGING the HVB to quickly warm up the HVB. When the HVB gets warm enough (however warm that is....???), it stops drawing power (Does it do this activity every time the battery falls below 50?). Finally, when the Value Charge time is reached, it finishes the charging. Correct?

Last night, I did go back out a few minutes later after I made the video and noticed that the car was no longer displaying the pulsating charging indication on the light ring. My conclusion was that either it had finished charging (it was almost fully charged already) or it cut off and was going to wait until my Value Charge time arrived. I wasn't up at 1:00am so did not check if it started charging again at the start of the VC time window.

The big flaw here is that the display in the car indicates that the 'Value Charge' time starts when the connector is plugged in even though it may not actually be starting the charge cycle. That is what mislead me into thinking that the VC function was misbehaving.

Additionally, I find it annoying that Value Charge does not also control the use of power for HVB heating. This brings to mind another question.... If the car is parked somewhere and the HVB temperature falls below 50 degrees, does the HVB heater use (cannibalize) its own energy to heat the battery? If it does NOT, then why is the system programmed to allow the HVB heater to pull current from a charger outside of the Value Charge time window? If I plug in my cold FFE at 7:00pm and it starts drawing current to heat the HVB, I am paying 43 cents a KWH for that energy! If the Value Charge time slot were honored, then the heating would cost me 10 cents a KWH after 11:00PM. If it's cold and I want to avoid using power at that time, I need to wait until my rates drop to plug in the car. This partially defeats the purpose of VC, doesn't it?

I am sure there are other factors that affect the charging (and discharging) behavior that I am not aware of. I am a technical person and would really like to find some technical documentation explaining all of these quirks of the car that are not explained in the owner's manual and, for that matter, even the dealer doesn't know about or can't explain!

Thanks folks....

zeldar said:

So what is happening is that when it is below 50 degrees F ambient temperature and the car has been sitting for a while, the HVB temp falls below 50. Then when I plug in the level-2 charger outside of the Value Charge time window, the ring blinks around the circle and shows me the level of charge. Then, when the quarter ring signifying the next 25 percent to be charged starts pulsating, it is NOT actually starting the Value Charge cycle, it is simultaneously HEATING and PARTIALLY CHARGING the HVB to quickly warm up the HVB. When the HVB gets warm enough (however warm that is....???), it stops drawing power (Does it do this activity every time the battery falls below 50?). Finally, when the Value Charge time is reached, it finishes the charging. Correct?

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Correct.

zeldar said:

Last night, I did go back out a few minutes later after I made the video and noticed that the car was no longer displaying the pulsating charging indication on the light ring. My conclusion was that either it had finished charging (it was almost fully charged already) or it cut off and was going to wait until my Value Charge time arrived. I wasn't up at 1:00am so did not check if it started charging again at the start of the VC time window.

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Check MyFord Mobile's Trip & Charge Log to see when your car charged. This is how our Charge Log shows the charging done to heat the HVB.

zeldar said:

The big flaw here is that the display in the car indicates that the 'Value Charge' time starts when the connector is plugged in even though it may not actually be starting the charge cycle. That is what mislead me into thinking that the VC function was misbehaving.

Additionally, I find it annoying that Value Charge does not also control the use of power for HVB heating. This brings to mind another question.... If the car is parked somewhere and the HVB temperature falls below 50 degrees, does the HVB heater use (cannibalize) its own energy to heat the battery? If it does NOT, then why is the system programmed to allow the HVB heater to pull current from a charger outside of the Value Charge time window? If I plug in my cold FFE at 7:00pm and it starts drawing current to heat the HVB, I am paying 43 cents a KWH for that energy! If the Value Charge time slot were honored, then the heating would cost me 10 cents a KWH after 11:00PM. If it's cold and I want to avoid using power at that time, I need to wait until my rates drop to plug in the car. This partially defeats the purpose of VC, doesn't it?

I am sure there are other factors that affect the charging (and discharging) behavior that I am not aware of. I am a technical person and would really like to find some technical documentation explaining all of these quirks of the car that are not explained in the owner's manual and, for that matter, even the dealer doesn't know about or can't explain!

Thanks folks....

Click to expand...

The car only heats the HVB when it is plugged in or turned on. When the car is turned on it usually uses the warm coolant from the motor electronics loop to heat the HVB. This is not very effective at heating the HVB, and only barely raises the temperature. When plugged in the car will charge to heat the HVB. Since we park in a heated garage we don't know what happens if the HVB is warmer than 50 F and then drops to 50 F while the car is plugged in, but I suspect that it may heat it at that point. I haven't spent a lot of time studying what the car does during this short charge period, but I'll try to look at it more in the coming days/weeks.

Edit: There is an electric heater for the HVB coolant loop, but I have never seen it turn on while the car is turned on. I don't know if it turns on during these brief charging sessions or not.

Edit 2: No one seems to know how these things work except the team the programmed them. Even the Field Engineers don't know how this stuff works. I have a CD copy of the workshop manual and it doesn't explain any of this. This explains why the dealers know so little, Ford just doesn't provide them with the info...

Zeldar,

Yep, I freaked as well, as when I'd get home in the evening (at a peak period for electricity billing) the car would start "charging" when I plugged it in, even when set to value charge.

I found the exact post (mentioned above) about it heating the battery. Sure enough, I'd check on the car 20 mins later or so, and the charge light would be out. At 1am, it dutifully started charging.

I do wish, however, that there was a way/setting (in this situation) to tell the car to NOT use house power to heat the battery. Just use the HVB to do it, and then just charge longer during the value charge period when the rates are less than half of what they are during the peak period.

When I bought my EVSE I wasn't thinking about this issue, but I happened to buy one with a delay setting. I haven't messed with the Value Charge settings; I push a button on the EVSE before plugging in to delay the start of charging between 1 - 8 hours.

I believe the Juicebox may give you finer control over charge times rather than just a 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour etc. delay?

Here's a thread about wiring up a 240V digital timer to control the start time and keep your EVSE. Although as Steve0512 states in the thread, not all EVSEs may work with a timer.

tinilk said:

When I bought my EVSE I wasn't thinking about this issue, but I happened to buy one with a delay setting. I haven't messed with the Value Charge settings; I push a button on the EVSE before plugging in to delay the start of charging between 1 - 8 hours.

I believe the Juicebox may give you finer control over charge times rather than just a 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour etc. delay?

Here's a thread about wiring up a 240V digital timer to control the start time and keep your EVSE. Although as Steve0512 states in the thread, not all EVSEs may work with a timer.

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That's the trade off. If you use a timed wall charger, you're getting 100% of your electricity in the value charge period. However, if you're in a cold climate (your profile says Boston) and you're parked outside, your battery isn't getting the conditioning that it wants.

What is the difference (to the car) between parking the car outside at 40 degrees and having the charger switch on at the time when rates go down (WAY DOWN for me -from 43¢ to 10¢) and having the car do battery conditioning charging (at HIGH rates) and then finish charging during the value charge window? Is it battery longevity or a higher range?

Hey Ford, why don't you let ME choose if I want the car to heat the battery during my peak rate periods?! I bought a non-timer EV charger thinking I could control charge times using the Value Charge feature. Turns out that my VC programming is ignored when the HVB falls below 50 degrees. I have had to resort to going outside at 11pm to plug in the car due to this FLAW in the ability to control my energy use.

I understand that I would get better range if the battery is at optimal temperature, but in my case, the car isn't going anywhere else for the rest of the night. We don't plug it in until we're done driving it for the day. My guess is many folks do the same thing.

Not happy.

zeldar said:

What is the difference (to the car) between parking the car outside at 40 degrees and having the charger switch on at the time when rates go down (WAY DOWN for me -from 43¢ to 10¢) and having the car do battery conditioning charging (at HIGH rates) and then finish charging during the value charge window? Is it battery longevity or a higher range?

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Both. Li-ion batteries don't like to be cold. They have been compared to people. If you would be too hot or too cold then so is your HVB. The same thing (power draw immediately upon being plugged in) will happen in the summer if your HVB is too hot when you get home.

zeldar said:

What is the difference (to the car) between parking the car outside at 40 degrees and having the charger switch on at the time when rates go down (WAY DOWN for me -from 43¢ to 10¢) and having the car do battery conditioning charging (at HIGH rates) and then finish charging during the value charge window? Is it battery longevity or a higher range?

Hey Ford, why don't you let ME choose if I want the car to heat the battery during my peak rate periods?! I bought a non-timer EV charger thinking I could control charge times using the Value Charge feature. Turns out that my VC programming is ignored when the HVB falls below 50 degrees. I have had to resort to going outside at 11pm to plug in the car due to this FLAW in the ability to control my energy use.

I understand that I would get better range if the battery is at optimal temperature, but in my case, the car isn't going anywhere else for the rest of the night. We don't plug it in until we're done driving it for the day. My guess is many folks do the same thing.

Not happy.

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Not meaning to be overly facetious but the fact is we ALWAYS have the ultimate control over when our cars charge by managing when we plug them in, notwithstanding the inconvenience that may frequently cause. The battery management of warming or cooling the battery upon plugging in is designed to maximize battery life and minimize the rate of pre-mature battery failure. From my point of view as a consumer I’d rather pay a few extra dollars on my electrical bill during each winter month of ownership to protect the most expensive single item in my FFE rather than risk having to pay north of $10K to replace a battery that either outright failed or suffered excess capacity loss due to poor care. From Fords perspective, and that is the only one that counts in the cars marketing and corporate support (such as it is or is not), this “semi-rigorous” level of battery management reduces the frequency of battery failure/capacity loss warranty claims.

And the battery does “care” if it has to sit cold for an extended period before it gets warmed during the charging cycle. It is never a good idea to let any chemical reaction system, especially complex ones like those in an advanced battery systems either “cold soak” or “heat soak”. Being significantly away from the design points, notably on the cold side, will drastically alter the reagents' activity coefficients, energy requirements to meet the reaction activation energy, the stoichiometric equilibrium constants, efficacy of catalysts, etc.. When cold soaked all these parameters “drive” the “cold side” of the often stated summary that excessive heat will “kill” a Li-ion battery and cold will drastically reduce its performance. And of course if the HVB gets down to the freezing temperature of the electrolytes not only will the chemical reactions cease which could "brick the battery" there is the potential for physical damage to the battery cells and overall packaging due to expansion during the electrolye freezing.

Thanks and Cheers

Carl

Yes. I can decide when I want to plug in the vehicle or use a timer on the charger, which I guess I will add, since mine doesn't have that feature. My point is that if the car is parked for hours at the mall or at work or anyplace but home, not connected to a charger, it is going to be braving the elements at the ambient temperature outside. When it is home, not plugged into my charger, it is also, after sitting for a while, at the ambient outside air temperature. I understand it could be catastrophic if the battery actually froze and expanded enough to compromise the casing, and hopefully it takes temperatures colder than what we have in Northern California for that to happen. I also understand that extreme cold and heat is bad for the battery and that the battery will be viable for longer if it is kept at ideal temperatures. This is a great benefit for Ford since it will have to replace fewer batteries under warranty if I pay for the additional energy to heat the cool the HVB.

However, since the battery warranty is probably longer than I will own the car, I am now paying for additional energy, at a much higher cost, for the benefit of Ford! This definitely means Ford won't do anything with the software programming to allow me to choose if I want the car to heat and cool itself when it's plugged in, so I'll have to get the timer.

zeldar said:

However, since the battery warranty is probably longer than I will own the car, I am now paying for additional energy, at a much higher cost, for the benefit of Ford!

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Have you actually computed the potential cost here? I think you might be getting worked up over not a whole lot of money.

Besides, overall, you'll still probably come out paying far less for fuel than if you drove a gasmobile. I'd take it as par for the course.

Well, let's see. At 43 cents per kilowatt hour (my peak rate), and at 23 kW for a full charge, cost to charge it at peak rate is 23x.43=$9.89 and the average range we get is about 68 miles, so at $2.00 gas price, $9.89 would buy 4.945 gallons. So, 68 miles using 4.945 gallons would calculate to the gas equivalent of of 13.75 MPG. Pretty terrible.

On the other hand, at 10 cents per kilowatt hour (my off-peak rate, PG&E in California), the cost for the full charge would be $2.30 and the equivalent gas mileage would be 59.13 MPG. Very good.

That's a pretty big difference. Even if the car charges 25-50% during the HVB heating and cooling cycles, over time, the difference is significant.

zeldar said:

Well, let's see ... the difference is significant.

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I agree with your math, but 13.75 MPG seems like the Worst Possible Case, and assumes maximum heating will always be needed, every night.

I think what you're actually going to see is only enough energy drawn to heat the battery outside of the Value Charge period -- not necessarily "full charges" always happening at your off-peak rate. Also, the heating, if needed, will only occur during the winter months, no?

Over the course of an entire year, the costs will not nearly approach the worst possible case.

(Does anybody know for use if the car actually charges the battery while heating it, or just heats it?)

True. The actual cost is a fraction of my worst case analysis. I don't have any way to actually calculate how much additional money I am paying because I have no way to measure how much power the car draws during peak intervals. It all depends on how much the car 'decides' to heat or cool outside of the programmed Value Charge window. I live in an area where it gets quite hot in the summer (not so lucky as you SF Bay Area folks ), so I suppose the 'renegade' power use could happen in the summer too. I really don't know since I did not pay attention to the car's behavior last summer. I just noticed this behavior last month.

My beef is that I should be able to decide if I want the car to condition the battery whenever it wants or to have the car obey my Value Charge window without exception knowing that I may shorten the battery life. The only way I can do that with this car is to buy another charger (like the Siemens) with a delay timer or retrofit a timer on my current charger.

By the way, according to other owners, the car does actually charge to heat the HVB, so 7.7kW is the energy used during the heating cycles.

zeldar said:

By the way, according to other owners, the car does actually charge to heat the HVB, so 7.7kW is the energy used during the heating cycles.

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Don't get kW and kWh mixed up.

Sure it does charge the battery a little to heat up at the max rate (not sure where you got 7.7kW as the car only has a 6.6 kW charger--unless you're trying to include that extra few % due to the inefficiency of the charger). If it actually used 7.7 kWh to charge the car that is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the usable battery.. Even when it was -10F here I don't think I've ever seen it put that much in to heat the battery.

It really only charges it for about 20 minutes (which is 1/3 of an hour so only about 2 kWh...by your math that is about an extra $1 per day).

I'm also on a time of day rate here in MI ($0.035 overnight and $0.14 during the day). My summer bills for the FFE were $30 and change, my winter bills for the FFE ranged around $50.

(Of course now with the C-Max I find I'm charging after work more than I did with the FFE since it has a smaller battery--it will be interesting to see the hit on my bill.)

WattsUp said:

(Does anybody know for use if the car actually charges the battery while heating it, or just heats it?)

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It charges. See this screen shot of what the Trip & Charge Log in MFM shows for these short charges to heat the HVB.

zeldar said:

I don't have any way to actually calculate how much additional money I am paying because I have no way to measure how much power the car draws during peak intervals. It all depends on how much the car 'decides' to heat or cool outside of the programmed Value Charge window.

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zeldar - have you checked your Trip & Charge Log in MFM to see how long the car is charging when you first get home? Our car usually charges for 6-15 minutes to heat the battery. That's 0.1 to 0.25 hours. Drawing 6.6 kW for 0.1 hours would mean 0.66 kWh used, which equates to $0.28. If it draws power for 15 minutes it would use 1.65 kWh, which equates to $0.71.

I understand your perspective that the car shouldn't charge until the Value Charge window. But that is really a misunderstanding of what Value Charging is for. If you read the FAQs on MFM you'll see that it clearly states that the car will sometimes charge during the $$$$$ windows due to other factors (such as a cold HVB). I don't think $0.50 per day is worth getting so worked up over.

One more observation I have made is that the tendency to heat the battery seems to also be influenced by the level of charge in the HVB. When my FFE battery has more charge, like on the weekend when it has only been used to go to the store and back, the car is MORE likely to do the battery heating outside the VC window. Not sure why that is but it is what I have observed given roughly equivalent outside temperature and equivalent time the car has been sitting unplugged outside. Perhaps it is more 'stressful' on the battery if it gets cold at a higher charge level??