How-to Evaluate Battery Health at Dealer

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the_ron

New member
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
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2
Hi everyone,

I'm going to check out a Focus Electric in a couple days. My biggest concern is that the unit I'm interested has been on the lot for 300+ days. What's a simple way to determine how much capacity the battery has lost?

Sorry if this has been covered before. I didn't find anything specific with a quick search.
 
If they took care of the battery then I wouldn't worry too much about capacity loss in a year. I'd ask lots of questions about how they treated the vehicle on the lot (did they keep the battery topped up, etc.) and when and how the recalls were applied.

The biggest concern would be if the battery ever was too deeply discharged. Not sure if there would be any indication of that happening.

With all of the recalls and not being sure of how the vehicles are treated by the dealers, I ordered mine from the factory and I'm glad I did. No issues at all so far.
 
michael said:
I'd be more worried that it was out baking in the sun for a year. Where are you located? How was it stored? What color is it?

I'm in VA. It looks like the car started out its retail life in NJ, but I don't know when it was shipped down here. The car is white. If I like the FFE but not the specific unit, I may likely order a fresh one.

Thanks for the responses!
 
paw160 said:
If they took care of the battery then I wouldn't worry too much about capacity loss in a year.
I wouldn't assume that. To be safe, I would just steer clear of any FFE that has been on the lot longer than a month, if possible.
 
Hiding in the shadow of every risk is opportunity. I'm with sefs, the year-old FFE is ripe for a great deal. Its battery is probably fine.

After reading articles on the subject, sitting around for a year is less likely to shorten battery life any more than regular usage, unless the battery was stored at a high state of charge for a prolonged period in a hot climate. I was in VA last summer during that heat wave, and it was nothing compared to CA/AZ/NV, so I suspect the FFE is fine. Ideally, the battery would have been stored greater than 20% and less than 80% SOC most of the time; if that was the case, longevity shouldn't suffer any more than driving it around in identical environmental conditions. I didn't pull those SOC numbers out of thin air; here's something I wrote up a while back, in the latter half of it refers to a couple of articles, one by batteryuniversity.com and another that was in Design News:

http://vinn.myevblog.com/2013/10/12/prolonging-life/

Simplest way to test the range? Only way that I know is to charge it completely, run around for a couple of hours until you're down to a couple of miles range, see how many kWh was consumed. If it's close to 19kWh you're probably fine. Maybe the dealer would let you drive it around for a day? It is possible... Last month, before I signed on the dotted line for my Volt, the dealer "loaned" me the car for the afternoon.
 
I have the impression that my FFE may have lost a lot of charge capacity and I now realize that I should have been keeping a log of time, charges and temperature and how much charge is shown in the morning. I am now and i recommend that we all do so. I have had my car for a year and it seems not to be able to get more than a 62 mile charge no matter how long on charger. That would be about at least a 15 to 20 percent change in a year, depending on what the car was out of the box. In fact, I think this change mostly happened over the last three months. I know that last summer I could charge up to 80 to 85 mile range. I am fully aware that the car should lose range over time, and I expected maybe about a 5 percent degrade per year. Tesla expects about 25 percent over 8 years. I live in MA and have about 7000 miles. Love the car. Ideas anyone? I use both 120 and 208 volt charging.
 
Hugh said:
I have had my car for a year and it seems not to be able to get more than a 62 mile charge no matter how long on charger.
Is it cold where you are and/or are you using the heater a lot? A range estimate of 62 miles is not unusual under those circumstances. When the weather gets warmer again, the range estimate should go back up.

Or, have your driving habits changed? Are you driving faster on more freeways? Or, going up more hills? Again, all of these things could reduce the estimated range. But, would not necessarily indicate a loss in capacity.

Is your tire pressure very low? The added resistance from poorly-inflated tires could noticeably decrease range. My FFE came from the dealer with all tired under-inflated to 32 PSI. The recommended pressure for the FFE is actually 38 PSI.

But the real question... what is your average Wh/mi? If it above 300, then an estimated range in the 60's is no surprise. In order to achieve a range in the 70's, your average Wh/mi will need to be closer to 250.
 
Hugh said:
I think this change mostly happened over the last three months. I know that last summer I could charge up to 80 to 85 mile range. I am fully aware that the car should lose range over time. . .
I doubt that the problem you are experiencing is degradation of the battery over time. It's been winter in Massachusetts the last three months. Batteries are less efficient in cold weather. Think of how much slower the engine cranks in a gas vehicle when it's really cold. That's not just because of cold thick motor oil, it's decreased battery capacity due to cold.

You should see a significant increase in range as soon as the weather gets into the 40s. In January, here in Atlanta, when it was in the teens and 20s and I was using the heater a lot, my average was 335 Wh/mi. Now that it has warmed up some, my average for February was 235 Wh/mi. That makes a significant difference in range. Don't fret. Jonquils are coming up down here. Spring will be headed your way soon.
 
Thanks for your thoughtful suggestions, but I didn't mention I am taking readings without heater on, and under similar weather conditions, thus my notation of temperature. I am as anal as any of you about driving style vs performance. I have had the car slightly more than a year under two winter's depradations. I still suggest notatation of battery capabilities. More on this as it develops.
 
Hugh said:
Thanks for your thoughtful suggestions, but I didn't mention I am taking readings without heater on, and under similar weather conditions, thus my notation of temperature.
I see. Well, I admit your observations could be troubling, but you still didn't say what your average Wh/mi is. If it's 300 or more, then the numbers you're getting are normal (since 19.5 kWh / 300 Wh/mi = 65 miles) and would not imply any battery capacity loss (of the 19.5 kWh usable).

Other than that, anything producing some kind a "drag" on the car (tire pressure, vehicle weight, route incline, etc.) could lead to the losses you "seem" to have experienced, so I would eliminate all those as possibilities first.
 
Sorry, I'm not being clear about the symptoms. Battery state of charge when I. Get into car to drive is what I'm talking about. Will not go above 62 no matter how long it is charged, nor whether 208 or 120 volt. I. May have a catastrophic failure. just checked now. Outdoor temp is 41 degrees and total charge shown is only 40 miles.
 
Hugh said:
Sorry, I'm not being clear about the symptoms. Battery state of charge when I. Get into car to drive is what I'm talking about. Will not go above 62 no matter how long it is charged, nor whether 208 or 120 volt. I. May have a catastrophic failure. just checked now. Outdoor temp is 41 degrees and total charge shown is only 40 miles.
Sorry for the miscommunication (if any). I do believe that I understand what you are describing. You're stating that the range estimate of your fully-charged FFE is only 62 miles. And, this estimate seems low to you, and you're wondering if your battery has lost capacity. Correct?

Btw, I note that you're incorrectly equating the range estimate and the battery "state of charge". Just to clarify, the range estimate is related to the battery SOC, but it is not the same as the SOC. You can get wildly different range estimates for the same SOC. When you turn the car on, the initial range estimate is based on both your latest average Wh/mi and the current SOC (and continues to be, as you drive along and these variables change over time). Either one of these variables could be causing the specific range estimates you are seeing. Since the average Wh/mi is very dynamic and the SOC (in theory) should not be, we should check that the estimates you're seeing are, or are not, attributable to your Wh/mi.

Do you mind telling us what your average Wh/mi is? You can use the Trip view to check it.

Btw, to see the actual SOC (in percent) of the battery, bring up the energy screen (via the "leaf" button) on the main MFT display. Or, check the blue battery indicator in the MFM app/site. What percent do these things show on a full charge?
 
Wattsup, you are absolutely correct about the watt hours/mile. it was over 410! I have been doing a lot of heating. I have seen a steady reduction in range estimate, and I realize now how the average is being dragged down probably by the heater current draw and those thermometer single digits happening often here at night. This has been a wicked winter. That average is probably over the whole trip distance which i hadn't reset for a long time.

I am also somewhat of a carchondriac since my encounters with SSN and the wrench light. The wrench light code was shown as a possible battery fault, but stopped appearing. I was told to keep a lookout for it. Thus I transfer worrying about that to being superaware of any possible battery problem.
Thanks for the peace of mind you have bestowed upon me.

I fully intend to drive this car at least for the next 4 years, no matter what happens. I had wanted an electric car since the 70's but they had lead acid batteries back then and were clunky. I subscribed to Electric Vehicle News back in the late 70's until they conked out. How many people can say that? I drove the Leaf twice, and then as soon as I got into an FFE I knew it was a much better ride and just a better automobile. The FFE suspension is superb, solid, but comfortable. Cornering is great. 2013 Ice Green.
 
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