michael
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:02 pm

I've been doing a lot of reading recently, and I am absolutely convinced the battery should be charged no more than necessary to leave a reasonable (20-30%) soc before charging

It's true that Ford limits the charge to something less than 100%, but we don't know the exact value. Perhaps 90%?? But the research data are in uniform agreement...lower Soc gives less degradation. And I'm not talking about battery university.com, although they too agree. I'm talking about papers from NREL, JPL, DOD, etc

Also consider that GM limits the Volt to the range 87-22%, that Nissan provides an 80% option, and that Tesla provides a slider control so that users can tailor the charging range to their usage.

And the technical papers uniformly agree that 80% is not some magical number. 70 is better than 80. 60 better than 70. Lower is better. The DOD found that running the batteries between 50 and 0 is far better than between 100 and 50, and actually better than between 75 and 25. That's not my opinion...those are their data.

The argument that short term storage at high soc is not an issue ignores the fact that the damage is cumulative. Being fully charged 24 hours a day for 7 days or 7 hours a day for 24 day, it's the same...168 hours at high soc


So if you are driving 40 miles between charges and have a 3 year lease, you can fully charge all the time and ignore my comments completely. But if you are planning to drive a lot and particularly if you own the car, I'd would limit charging to the level necessary with reasonable reserve. And Ford, like Nissan and Tesla, should provide an easy way to do so


I set my car to begin charging at 5 AM, and I awl outside to unplug it when the charge gets into the low 80s. I shouldn't have to do this. The car is a computer.
2013 FFE Returned after 3 years with 52,000 miles and battery down to 15.2 kWh
2014 Volt returned with 43,000 miles
2014 Volt 26,000 miles
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julzian
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:05 am

Please update the software to be able to set a desired charge percentage.

I also live 1000 feet elevation above my town and I have zero regen all the way down to my town. I estimate that I could set mine to charge until 98%
(of the 80% max allowed), the empty 2% would fill by the time I get to town. I estimate that to be somewhere around 1/2 KWh. We would also go through our brake pads about 1/4 as fast for more savings on time and resources. These are heavier than gas cars and will wear out brake pads faster than normal with the regen turned off. Imagine this for an FFE driver 2000 feet or more above their town. The Leaf and the Model S have brought this feature to their software for a few good reasons as you can see from this thread.

I would like to add that I also just purchased the 2014 Fusion Energi and it has the same disability. But it is even worse because if you use L mode to help you brake on a full charge it kicks on the engine to assist braking and it seems to stay in first gear, even above 25mph and the engine revs super loud. I can't even use L mode down the hill unless I sit at my driveway and blast heat for 5 minutes to drain some battery. So you burn fuel all the way down instead of creating power. I am frustrated at this design flaw in such a high tech and expensive machine. But I can't afford a Tesla and don't love the Leaf. I do love the FFE and the Energi except for this single flaw. I did contact Ford about it a year ago for my FFE and made a formal suggestion for an update. I've been waiting patiently.

On a good note, when you go down a long, steep windy hill without a full battery, the FFE and the Energi both handle like energy capturing champions with smooth regenerative braking and an L mode that keeps you from having to touch the brakes except on the steepest of grades.

We need this update ASAP! Thank you in advance Ford.
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speediburns
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:20 pm

Old topic, new owner, same need. I also live on a big hill (around 1500'). I havent been watching Wh/m, but I see surplus ratings of 30-60 by the bottom of the hill if I am not fully charged. I hate to be giving that up everyday. Same hill everyday so once I determine just how much regen I get on the hill I can stop charging there every day.

WattsUp
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:00 pm

speediburns wrote:I havent been watching Wh/m, but I see surplus ratings of 30-60 by the bottom of the hill if I am not fully charged. I hate to be giving that up everyday.
Remember, status numbers like +30 don't mean you've "regenerated" 30 miles.

That's just the guess-o-meter re-estimating how many miles you could drive (relative to its initial estimate) with your average energy usage by the time you get to the bottom of the hill (which would be very little). But, it will quickly re-adjust once you start cruising on level ground, and your average energy usage increases back to normal. The estimate of +30 was just a temporary anomaly.

Sure, you would have regenerated some energy going down your hill. But, unless you're going downhill for miles and miles, and at highway speeds, you are likely "giving up" a relatively negligible amount of energy from regeneration.

I do, admit, though, it would be nice to use regen for braking if only to save your brake pads.
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breeves002
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:09 pm

I know this an old topic but I couldn't help reading it.

I would never use this feature, but I see how it could be helpful for some.

I always charge my battery to full overnight and while at work. I don't have time to worry about keeping it at a lower SOC. There is so much conflicting data on what is best for the battery... I find the BEST thing is to keep it COOL. L1 charging does run the cooling fan. L2 is better though.

One thing I will say. My FFE charges to just over 20kW. That leaves me with just over 18kW usable. It charges to 87% SOC. That is a 13% or 3kW buffer zone. I think that is fairly adequate. 351v seems to be full with 4.08v per cell. It will not let you use the last 2kW or so due to the voltage drop being too much during acceleration and to help the battery have a longer life. Li-on batteries do not like to be discharged completely.

On the first page someone said it showed that it was doing a "saturation charge". This is not necessarily true. Once it gets past about 82% SOC the charging rate will slow from 28a down to 10a and even less until it hits its 100% which is 87% SOC on my Focus. This is partially a saturation charge but this is more of an equalization charge. Higher the SOC gets the more resistance the hotter the cells get. Slowing down after 82% does help the heat. However the main reason to slow down is to make sure the cells equalize charge. When charging fast some cells may accept a charge faster then others. After slowing down they have a chance to equalize. This is far different then slowing down for saturation. I believe the battery is going to stay cool enough at 87% SOC that you could just cut off charging. However you'd likely see a voltage drop and SOC drop as the cells equalize after cutting it off from high amperage charging.
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michael
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:34 am

breeves002 wrote:
I always charge my battery to full overnight and while at work. I don't have time to worry about keeping it at a lower SOC. There is so much conflicting data on what is best for the battery... I find the BEST thing is to keep it COOL. L1 charging does run the cooling fan. L2 is better though.
There really is no conflicting data...high levels of charge lead to battery fade. And yes, absolutely, temperature is important too.

I agree with WattsUps statement that except for exceptional circumstances the amount of charge to be saved by leaving some margin for an initial downhill run is not terribly significant. What is important is to be easy on the battery. A year ago, it might have been possible to believe that Ford had some design that avoids battery fade. Now that we are seeing cars with high mileage demonstrating fade, that's no longer realistic.

It shouldn't be necessary to take the time to worry about keeping the battery at a lower SOC. There should have been a simple setting to do this automatically like several other manufacturers provide, most notably Tesla.
2013 FFE Returned after 3 years with 52,000 miles and battery down to 15.2 kWh
2014 Volt returned with 43,000 miles
2014 Volt 26,000 miles
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327
Awaiting a Bolt

speediburns
Posts: 7
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:37 am

WattsUp wrote: Remember, status numbers like +30 don't mean you've "regenerated" 30 miles. That's just the guess-o-meter ....

But, unless you're going downhill for miles and miles, and at highway speeds, you are likely "giving up" a relatively negligible amount of energy from regeneration.
I realize the surplus value is a useless feature as driving conditions often change dramatically and yes I realize it is not how many miles have been regenerated.

I go downhill for 6 miles at about 30 miles per hour and have to touch the gas maybe twice for 50 yards or so. Effectively riding the brakes the entire 12 minutes. I know I am not going to charge the car doing this, but I also realize there is no need to have a full charge for my 16 mile commute when 6 miles are downhill. When the car is fully charged there is a lurching that occurs each time I hit the pedal. I assume it is the switching from regen to hydraulic braking, but it is kind of annoying. I dont notice the same effect at lower charge level if I hit the brakes hard enough to engage the hydraulics.

Although this is the first EV I purchased (yes purchased), I have experience with the Rav4, Tesla S, and some friends with the I3 and Leaf. I have to say that the ford mobile interface is pretty crappy. It seems like improving customer experience would not take that much more effort, the hardware is already in place.

jmueller065
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:16 am

speediburns wrote:When the car is fully charged there is a lurching that occurs each time I hit the pedal. I assume it is the switching from regen to hydraulic braking, but it is kind of annoying. I dont notice the same effect at lower charge level if I hit the brakes hard enough to engage the hydraulics.
When the car is fully charged it doesn't use regen at all; thus the "jerkiness" you're noticing is the actual brakes. I can sometimes go a good 2 miles before the car starts to regen, other times I don't make it more than 500 ft before regen starts on a full charge.

You can tell when the car is regenerating by the little circle display on top of the battery when you hit the brakes. If the circle is spinning away on top of the battery the car is regening.
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hybridbear
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:01 am

speediburns wrote:When the car is fully charged there is a lurching that occurs each time I hit the pedal. I assume it is the switching from regen to hydraulic braking, but it is kind of annoying. I dont notice the same effect at lower charge level if I hit the brakes hard enough to engage the hydraulics.
jmueller065 wrote:When the car is fully charged it doesn't use regen at all; thus the "jerkiness" you're noticing is the actual brakes. I can sometimes go a good 2 miles before the car starts to regen, other times I don't make it more than 500 ft before regen starts on a full charge.

You can tell when the car is regenerating by the little circle display on top of the battery when you hit the brakes. If the circle is spinning away on top of the battery the car is regening.
The jerkiness is because the car is unsure of whether to allow regen or not. The car will allow regen when below 90% abs SOC. We used to see full charges always being greater than 90% SOC, now a full charge only gets us to 88.5-89.2% SOC so we always have regen right from the beginning. When the car is right near 90% SOC it will try to do regen when you're braking, but then it will decide that it can't charge the HVB anymore so it takes regen away (jerk) then the HVB will discharge from electronics/HVAC/etc loads & thus the car will turn regen on again (jerk) and this process repeats over & over. It does get quite annoying.

You could skip a day or two of charging if you don't need the full range and then you could measure how much energy can be gained from the hill.
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speediburns
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Re: Ability to limit the charging; ability to start/stop via

Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:32 am

If not fully charged, I gain 5% SOC when I leave my house. That is roughly 10% of my typical daily SOC usage.

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