Out the door price

Hello everyone,

Just placed an order for a 2014 FFE today. Thanks for all of the information on the forum. Now I just have to wait for delivery.

The out the door price for the car (includes transport, taxes, registration, etc) I got was ~ $26,500. I live in VA which has a 4% sales tax, so the cost of the car was ~ $25,400. The $7,500 tax rebate brings my cost down to $20,000, and Ford's is offering 0%, 5-year financing for the FFE.

I was a bit confused about some of the range numbers at first, the EPA number vs. calculating range. The EPA calculated efficiency based on power used at the charger (drive a while and figure out how much power to recharge the battery and calculate the mpge). Range is calculated from how much battery power is used to travel a given distance. There definitely needs to be some better consistency or clarity.

The battery is specified at 23kWh, which is derated to ~19.5kWh. In a Consumer Reports review, they got about 3.18 miles per kWh (0.314kW/mile) and about an 80 mile range. The efficiency calculation however is in reference to measuring the power provided by the charger, which is a valid EPA estimate to determine how much it cost drive a mile. Calculating range using the 0.314kW/mile is incorrect (19.5 / 0.314 = 62 miles). For every 0.3 kWh of energy from the charger, the battery only stores about 0.25 kWh (80-85% efficiency in converting AC to DC and then charging the battery). Based on numbers from this forum, the FFE uses about 0.250 kWh per mile (up to 0.3 kWh per mile if you have a lead foot). So if you use 0.25kWh/mile x 76 miles = 19 kWh, which matches all the tested range numbers.

I needed to calculate the range of the car in different weather conditions to make sure it would work for me. I have a 50 mile commute (round trip) on the DC beltway. My 50 mile commute should then use between 12.5 - 15 kWh. On a cold day, below 25 degrees, according to some posts the battery capacity drops to about 16 kWh. So if I drive conservatively and use only 13 kWh, I have ~ 3 kWh for heat and accessories. If I preheat the car in the morning, I can use the spare 3 kWh for heat and lights on the return trip. When it is warm outside, according to other posts the battery capacity doesn't drop as much, to about 18kWh. This gives me 5kWh for the air conditioner. The AC should be more efficient than the heater ( heat pump vs. resistive heater), so I should be able to run it in the morning and evening.

I currently get 25 mpg in my car, so my 50 mile commute costs $8 per day. A full charge for the FFE only costs $2. I should be able to save at least $132 per month in gas ($6/day * 22 days = $132). Financing the full $20K for the car (assuming I don't finance the $7.5K tax rebate) cost $334/month. My total actual cost is then $378/month ($334 + $44 for electricity). My total effective cost compared to still using my current car however is $202 per month ($334 - $132 = $202) for the first 5 years. That doesn't include any additional savings from maintenance. Personally, I think this is a great deal. Thanks again for all the helpful posts.

ahwnn said:

The battery is specified at 23kWh, which is derated to ~19.5kWh. In a Consumer Reports review, they got about 3.18 miles per kWh (0.314kW/mile) and about an 80 mile range. The efficiency calculation however is in reference to measuring the power provided by the charger, which is a valid EPA estimate to determine how much it cost drive a mile. Calculating range using the 0.314kW/mile is incorrect (19.5 / 0.314 = 62 miles). For every 0.3 kWh of energy from the charger, the battery only stores about 0.25 kWh (80-85% efficiency in converting AC to DC and then charging the battery). Based on numbers from this forum, the FFE uses about 0.250 kWh per mile (up to 0.3 kWh per mile if you have a lead foot). So if you use 0.25kWh/mile x 76 miles = 19 kWh, which matches all the tested range numbers.

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Excellent summary, ahwnn. It takes some new EV owners a long time (if ever) to understand the difference between "energy from the wall" and "energy in the battery", in addition to the fact that, while all the car's displays and relative to the latter, a full understanding of the former is needed to compute the true energy usage/cost. But, seems like you're already completely on top of it!

ahwnn said:

I needed to calculate the range of the car in different weather conditions to make sure it would work for me. I have a 50 mile commute (round trip) on the DC beltway. My 50 mile commute should then use between 12.5 - 15 kWh. On a cold day, below 25 degrees, according to some posts the battery capacity drops to about 16 kWh. So if I drive conservatively and use only 13 kWh, I have ~ 3 kWh for heat and accessories. If I preheat the car in the morning, I can use the spare 3 kWh for heat and lights on the return trip. When it is warm outside, according to other posts the battery capacity doesn't drop as much, to about 18kWh. This gives me 5kWh for the air conditioner. The AC should be more efficient than the heater ( heat pump vs. resistive heater), so I should be able to run it in the morning and evening.

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My coworker has a 50 mile round trip commute. We can't charge at work and he was able to make the FFE work in the very worst of our midwest winter this year (tons of snow, <0 temps for days on end). On the worst days he would use a 12V heated blanket instead of the car's heater (its only about 55W) and he'd use a small 12V defroster on the windshield as well (again instead of the car's heater).
Here is the blanket he uses:
http://jamiegeek.myevblog.com/2013/11/13/staying-warm/

(My commute is only 30 miles round trip so I didn't have to use as extreme measures but it was tough..sometimes returning home with <10 miles on the guess-o-meter when I'd kick on the car's heat on the way home.)

How did you get the price down to $25,400?!?! MSRP is $36,000 with current rebates bringing the price to $30,000 in California. You're going to love the car as long as you don't use SYNC or the GPS. I have a 52 mile r/t commute and consistently use 12kWh with cruise control set about 60mph. I had 32 mile range left over at the end of my commute today--plenty to spare or make a stop or three on the way home. I use the a/c frequently, but almost never run the heater because I live in socal so you'll need to preheat and have a full charge on those cold days. This may sound strange, but you are going to like driving 60, especially on the beltway. I used to drive 75-80 everywhere (even on the beltway) but now I cruise in the right lane and watch all the crazed rat racers fly by--EV really changes the perspective and lowers the stress levels. How did you get the price to $25,400!?!

Congratulations on the killer deal, ahwnn!

Looks like you did a lot of homework before jumping in... impressive.

Thanks for the comments.

Here is a breakdown of the price

Market Value : 35,995
Sale Price : 30,816
Rebate : - 6,000

Final Price : 24,816

Destination : 835
Taxes : 1105
Tag Fees : 235

Total : 27,480

Less Federal Tax Credit : - 7,500

Final Effective Price : $19,980

0% financing for 60 months

I need to point out that the $7500 federal rebate is actually a tax credit against federal taxes that you owe. If you owe less than $7500 in Federal taxes then you will not get the entire rebate. For example if you owe $3000 in Federal taxes then your tax credit would be reduced to $3000 and you would lose the other $4500 forever. A lot of folks have found this out the hard way.

If you qualify, the federal rebate will come back to you when you file your federal income tax return on April 15th.

This is important because you can not carry forward the rebate.

The federal rebate is not given to you at the dealer unless you lease the vehicle.

If you will not owe $7500 in Federal taxes then you can lease the car from Ford and they will give you full credit for the $7500 in the lease. What happens is that Ford reduces their tax liability by $7500 and they pass that entire $7500 to you in a reduction of the lease. This is the equivalent of reducing your lease payment by $208.33 per month. ($7500 divided by 36 months equals $208.33 per month)

I'm a big fan of leasing these vehicles for a number of reasons. I really don't want to own this technology because it is changing so fast. However if you do want to own the car, you can purchase it at the end of the 3 year lease at the residual price. Ford will be more than happy to sell it to you at that point.

Joe

You guys are getting some incredible deals. I can't negotiate a penny less than $29,000 with leather, which results in a $32,500 out-the-door price (including 9% sales tax) with the $6,000 incentive already deducted.

JOEFRIDAY said:

I need to point out that the $7500 federal rebate is actually a tax credit against federal taxes that you owe. If you owe less than $7500 in Federal taxes then you will not get the entire rebate.

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I always end up getting a refund from federal, after deducting a fair amount of business expenses. I also have a regular job, and for that I always claim zero exemptions to ensure that I never have to owe anything at the end of the year. But I do pay a significant amount in federal tax throughout the year that they take from each check (far in excess of $7,500 in federal tax paid) Does that mean I won't get any of the $7,500 tax credit?

studio460 said:

JOEFRIDAY said:

I need to point out that the $7500 federal rebate is actually a tax credit against federal taxes that you owe. If you owe less than $7500 in Federal taxes then you will not get the entire rebate.

Click to expand...

I always end up getting a refund from federal, after deducting a fair amount of business expenses. I also have a regular job, and for that I always claim zero exemptions to ensure that I never have to owe anything at the end of the year. But I do pay a significant amount in federal tax throughout the year that they take from each check (far in excess of $7,500 in federal tax paid) Does that mean I won't get any of the $7,500 tax credit?

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People always get confused by this. The federal EV tax credit applies to your tax liability. Put simply... if your liability is more than $7,500, then you will fully benefit from the entire credit. If your tax liability is less than $7,500, then you will only partially benefit. If your tax liability is nothing, then you will get no benefit at all.

The amount you "owe" (or don't) at the end of the year is simply the difference between your tax liability and what you've paid in taxes so far that year. Sometimes you pay too much (and get a refund) and sometimes you pay too little (and "owe" that last bit at tax-time). But, that has no effect of your liability.

Most people with any sort of significant income (especially those who can afford a $30-40K car), even if they are receiving a tax refund any given year, will still have a total tax liability of over $7,500.

Thanks for making that clear. That's how I assumed it worked. So when I file my 2014 taxes, I should get a refund (based on my business expenses), plus $7,500 in additional return against the tens of thousands of federal tax (which has already been withheld), that I've already paid.

studio460 said:

Thanks for making that clear. That's how I assumed it worked. So when I file my 2014 taxes, I should get a refund (based on my business expenses), plus $7,500 in additional return against the tens of thousands of federal tax (which has already been withheld), that I've already paid.

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Yes, the $7,500 is a tax credit. It can only be applied towards tax. If you owe no tax, then you can't use the credit.

studio460 said:

Thanks for making that clear. That's how I assumed it worked. So when I file my 2014 taxes, I should get a refund (based on my business expenses), plus $7,500 in additional return against the tens of thousands of federal tax (which has already been withheld), that I've already paid.

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When my parents bought their Energi last year they made changes to how taxes were withheld so that they paid $0 in federal taxes from June to December. This way they had more money in their pocket throughout the year and they still got a small refund. You could look at doing something similar so that you don't give an interest-free loan to the US gov. I know it's a little off topic but I find getting a tax refund to be an extremely poor use of your hard-earned money. That means you gave the gov an interest-free loan. I set up my withholding so that at the end of the year my wife & I end up either owing the government a little bit of money (always less than the level where they charge penalties though) or we get a small tax refund (about $200 for 2013). This way we have the most money in our pocket all year and don't let the government make money on our money. We pay enough taxes and we don't want to give the gov any freebies in addition.

Update on the car. It was delivered at the end of June, 7 weeks after ordering. For those interested, I bought the car at Koons Ford in Falls Church, VA.

I really like the FFE. I've driven it 2000 miles and I am averaging 0.225 kWh/mile. I estimate the de-rated battery capacity is 20 kWh.

For my 50 mile (round trip) commute, I typically use ~ 12 kWh. Not much traffic in the morning, but the evening can be slow. For climate control, I only use the fan in the morning but the AC in the evening. My max power consumption for a 25 mile segment has been 0.280 kWh/mile and the minimum 0.195 kWh/mile. The air conditioner, after initially cooling the car, uses ~ 500W. It seems like the accessories pull ~ 250W. I charge the car overnight with the 120V charger.

Positive:
- Driving the FFE is a Zen like feeling. It is really quiet.
- Incredibly cost effective for my commute.
- Comfortable and well built.
- Handles well.
- The instant torque is fun.
- Did not realize this earlier, but with the regenerative braking, the brake pads are barely used.

Cons (nothing serious)
- Haven't figured out some strange pump noises when I unlock or enter the car.
- I would have liked to have more tactical information on the dash on a single screen. The display should be more configurable - indicate power draw, energy used, estimated energy remaining. They shown in various formats, that are ok but not optimal.
- The battery gauge, "estimated miles remaining" doesn't adjust to the driver's long term history.
- Large turning radius.
- Twice, the AC power draw was briefly 5 kW (as per the display), which doesn't seem realistic.
- The charging port door can be tricky to close.
- Sync seems a bit strange, but haven't explored it much.
- Efficiency drops by ~ 15% when traveling at speeds above ~ 60 mph.

Overall, I am really happy with the car.

ahwnn said:

Cons (nothing serious)
- Haven't figured out some strange pump noises when I unlock or enter the car.
- I would have liked to have more tactical information on the dash on a single screen. The display should be more configurable - indicate power draw, energy used, estimated energy remaining. They shown in various formats, that are ok but not optimal.
- The battery gauge, "estimated miles remaining" doesn't adjust to the driver's long term history.
- Twice, the AC power draw was briefly 5 kW (as per the display), which doesn't seem realistic.

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The pump noises are likely the sounds of the brake booster pump. If you turn on the car but keep the HVAC off and press the brake you can hear the pump cycle.

I also would like better dash info.

I also wish the guess-o-meter wasn't so short-sighted and that it would take into account the speed limits on my navigation route.

If you see that on the AC it means the electric heater has kicked on to regulate the interior temp. Turn down the HVAC one degree and it should stop. Vin wrote an excellent blog post about that. I'm on my phone so I can't find the link but hopefully someone else will share it.

hybridbear said:

If you see that on the AC it means the electric heater has kicked on to regulate the interior temp. Turn down the HVAC one degree and it should stop. Vin wrote an excellent blog post about that. I'm on my phone so I can't find the link but hopefully someone else will share it.

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I don't think I wrote up anything on the subject, but thanks anyway, hybridbear! I could be wrong, I am getting old and sometimes don't remember promises I've made yesterday, according to my wife.

But I do remember reading with much interest, a couple of recent post on the heater+AC being on simultaneously, one by WattsUp and another by mattbrown:

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2128&hilit=ac+heater&start=10#p12852

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2128&hilit=ac+heater&start=10#p12864

v_traveller said:

hybridbear said:

If you see that on the AC it means the electric heater has kicked on to regulate the interior temp. Turn down the HVAC one degree and it should stop. Vin wrote an excellent blog post about that. I'm on my phone so I can't find the link but hopefully someone else will share it.

Click to expand...

I don't think I wrote up anything on the subject, but thanks anyway, hybridbear! I could be wrong, I am getting old and sometimes don't remember promises I've made yesterday, according to my wife.

But I do remember reading with much interest, a couple of recent post on the heater+AC being on simultaneously, one by WattsUp and another by mattbrown:

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2128&hilit=ac+heater&start=10#p12852

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2128&hilit=ac+heater&start=10#p12864

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Hmmmm ok, someone with a blog wrote about it and posted the link on here... Must've been someone else then...

It sounds like dealers in Virginia are really aggressive with the pricing... over $5000 below MSRP ?!

I have dealers here in Seattle asking for $4995 above MSRP ! I think they're out of their minds, especially since the local FFE stock in the region jumped from 4 last month to 25 this month.

But most of those cars are still "in transit" and maybe they really will sell immediately at higher-than-list-price. I think it's that anxiety that the dealers are counting on.

Spoke to Denver dealership this morning. They have a new 2014 that they're adding a $6K premium to the $35K MSRP.

I said, "So, it's now over $40K?"

"Yes."

I told him good luck with that and am now exploring the used market. Slim pickins there, too.

They are just adding the $6000 to the MSRP because there is a $6000 rebate. They can tell the customer that they are just paying list price after rebates, and you get 0% for 60 months. What a racket! We have adjusted our pricing a little based on demand, we are now asking for $800 over invoice minus the rebates. However, to earn every sale we can, we'll price match or meet requests of our customers if reasonable. We've sold a few to members of this site and they have been very pleased with our numbers and especially our customer service and knowledge.

John Chady
Havill Spoerl Ford Lincoln
Fort Atkinson, WI