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campfamily

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Went to the LA Auto Show on Friday, didn't see a FFE on display in the Ford area. Couple of Fusion Energi and C-Max, but no Focus. Was hoping for more information on Ford's plans for Electric cars, but no luck.....
 
I'm afraid they are indirectly telling us their plan...low capacity PHEV

Reports say that the production version of the Bolt will be shown at CES in January. When Bolt goes on sale, assuming it is what everyone is expecting, it will kill the FFE.
 
My Dad and I went to the L A Auto Show on Monday, November 23, 2015. Ford had one Focus Electric on display. Ford rep was down talking the car to a person who was asking questions about the car. The gentleman did not know Ford had a pure electric. The rep had only negative comments about the car. The gentleman and myself had a conversation about the merits of the car as a commuter. Rep kept talking about limited range - look at C-Max Energi instead. Our lease car now has over 3300 miles on it. Just four months! I told the gentleman about this forum and to check out Galpin Ford for a test drive. Range has been 60 - 64 miles in Lancaster, CA due cold temps with heater at 78 degrees. We were getting 80 - 90 miles during Summer with air at 72 degrees. Ford rep mentioned inconvenience of plugging in every night at home to charge - really inconvenient compared to filling a gas tank. Ford does not seem to want push the car. It would not exist without government zev goals!


Silverrabbit1954
 
jmueller065 said:
Michael said:
it will kill the FFE
and any other low range EV (i3, Kia Soul, eGolf, etc.). About the only thing it won't kill is the Leaf & Teslas.

Yes, I agree that the Bolt will obsolete all the 80 mile class BEVs, but...

...I3 will survive because the BMW fanboys will love anything they make, plus the range extender option helps...
...The next gen Leaf may or may not have range to match the Bolt, it's hard to say
...VW may lie and say the eGolf has 200 mile range
...I think Tesla may be in a jam. I think the Model 3 will be far more expensive than Tesla is suggesting

I'm really eager to see what the Bolt turns out to be, and what it will cost.

I see no indication that Ford plans to stay in the BEV game. I really wish they would produce....

...a two seater Focus with the back seats replaced by 200 miles worth of battery, and/or
...a BEV Fusion (or possibly a Lincoln variant to more closely compete with Tesla) with 200 mile class range, and/or
...a "Super Volt" Fusion with 80 miles of AER plus the existing ICE

If Chevy can do it, sure Ford can as well. Chevy blew it on the new Volt by providing only 50 miles AER. All they needed to do was provide 20 kWh/80 miles of AER and they would have killed everyone including Tesla.
 
not sure it will kill the FFE. depends on the cost for most people. As for ford not wanting to seel them i think the dealers dont want to sell them even more. I don't think they make much on the sale then even less on the maintenance of the car then when it does need something it will most likely be to expensive and not worth fixing.
 
Leo said:
not sure it will kill the FFE. depends on the cost for most people. As for ford not wanting to seel them i think the dealers dont want to sell them even more. I don't think they make much on the sale then even less on the maintenance of the car then when it does need something it will most likely be to expensive and not worth fixing.

In principle Chevy would have the same problem. It's true that many Chevy dealers steer people away from Volts, but a few smart ones take advantage of this and sell a ton.

One Los Angeles area Chevy dealer sells hundreds of Volts. The sales manager there is using the Volt to take people away from BMW, Lexus, etc. Once they own a Volt, they start looking with new eyes at Corvette and other Chevy products.

One friend of mine used to own nothing but Lexus. His family now drive Volt exclusively (three in the family). The wife once told me, "I was aware there was something called a Chevrolet, but I don't think I had actually noticed one..."

The electric car can become the crown jewel of a maker's product line. Tesla has severely impacted BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, etc. Ford and/or GM, if they are smart, can do likewise to the high end, plus Toyota and Honda as well.
 
michael said:
I see no indication that Ford plans to stay in the BEV game. I really wish they would produce....
They don't want to stay in the BEV game. The problem is that they are forced to and must stay in the BEV game (CARB rules are only going to get more stringent).

Much like the FFE I bet Ford will drag its feet and finally produce something after everyone else has their 200+ mile BEV out and then ignore it. From what I can tell the FFE was Alan Mulally and Bill Ford's baby. Now that Mark Fields (mr performance) is in charge a BEV is a (non-)stinker.
 
Silverrabbit1954 said:
Ford rep was down talking the car to a person who was asking questions about the car. The gentleman did not know Ford had a pure electric. The rep had only negative comments about the car. The gentleman and myself had a conversation about the merits of the car as a commuter. Rep kept talking about limited range - look at C-Max Energi instead.
Wow! I would have taken note of the name of that Ford rep to complain about them to Ford Corporate. I think we all know that Ford Corporate doesn't want to sell the car, but in spite of that I'd want to complain about a Ford employee bad-mouthing their own car. Was this person a Ford employee or an employee of a local dealer?

jmueller065 said:
michael said:
I see no indication that Ford plans to stay in the BEV game. I really wish they would produce....
They don't want to stay in the BEV game. The problem is that they are forced to and must stay in the BEV game (CARB rules are only going to get more stringent).

Much like the FFE I bet Ford will drag its feet and finally produce something after everyone else has their 200+ mile BEV out and then ignore it. From what I can tell the FFE was Alan Mulally and Bill Ford's baby. Now that Mark Fields (mr performance) is in charge a BEV is a (non-)stinker.
I think you're right on target with your assessment.
michael said:
Yes, I agree that the Bolt will obsolete all the 80 mile class BEVs, but...

...i3 will survive because the BMW fanboys will love anything they make, plus the range extender option helps...
...The next gen Leaf may or may not have range to match the Bolt, it's hard to say
...VW may lie and say the eGolf has 200 mile range
...I think Tesla may be in a jam. I think the Model 3 will be far more expensive than Tesla is suggesting

I'm really eager to see what the Bolt turns out to be, and what it will cost.
The i3 is supposed to get a range increase soon. Leaf will too. I'm not sure they'll match the Bolt, but it will hopefully keep them competitive. Your joke about VW is awesome! :lol: I find your Tesla comment intriguing. I think that the Model 3 should cost more than a comparable Bolt, if it includes Supercharging. That is worth a lot because it makes the car capable of road trips & capable of being someone's only vehicle. A Bolt with a 200 mile range cannot be driven across the country as easily as a Tesla using the Supercharger network. Thus, it's still limited to being a city car, it just now can operate within a larger city area. A 200 mile EV wouldn't be worth that much more to us than a 80 mile EV. The amount of trips that we could make without using gas in our Fusion Energi would only marginally increase. We'd save maybe 20 gallons of gas per year with a 200 mile EV versus an 80 mile EV. With a Supercharger enabled Tesla we could possibly go 100% gas free. The Supercharger network is almost built out enough across the northern US to make that possible.
michael said:
I see no indication that Ford plans to stay in the BEV game.
Ford has stated that they could make a BEV with the same range as a Model S, if they so desired. This indicates that they don't want to & that they won't. I find this very disappointing.
michael said:
If Chevy can do it, sure Ford can as well. Chevy blew it on the new Volt by providing only 50 miles AER. All they needed to do was provide 20 kWh/80 miles of AER and they would have killed everyone including Tesla.
That's an intriguing idea. If the new Volt had the same range as the current Leaf/Focus/et al & have the ICE back up it would really be a compelling car. Especially if GM could do it without raising its price. I wonder if the gen 3 Volt will have something like that setup, particularly as Bolt production helps lower battery costs.
 
All,

The proposed Bolt and any other non-Tesla 200 mile range BEVs are a bit of a quandary until there is sufficient DCQC infrastructure to effectively support long range (greater than 120 mile one-way) intercity travel. In comparison to the 80 mile range BEVs the increased range of the Bolt and Gen 2 Leaf can only:

a. give many people a “warm fuzzy” about being able to do their daily commute and additional daily shopping/visiting or entertainment travels,
b. enhance their ability to undertake short notice around town trips after a regular day’s commute or conduct several weekend trips (shopping rounds followed by entertainment or visiting trips the same day) without a requirement to “top off” the battery,
c. enable better range in adverse weather conditions, notably the cold winters experienced in much of the US and almost all of Canada giving a reliable winter range of perhaps 100 miles, and
d. allow a restricted amount of inter-city travel of approximately 120-135 miles between cities. (Any inter-city travel also has a significant component of inner city travel as one departs home and then arrives at the destination consuming on average probably 35 miles, give or take)

The 200 mile BEV however does very little for the more demanding longer range inter-city travel in North America with the current state of DCQC infrastructure. And while there are numerous initiatives to increase the deployment of Chademo and SAE Combo DC quick charging stations, even at the fruition of currently announced plans generalized intercity travel at common highway speeds (creeping up to an average now well over 70mph) will not be possible. Unless there are major governmental initiatives or at least incentives I can’t see the commercial interests developing the DCQC infrastructure to a state that will enable widespread all-year inter-city travel in a 200 mile BEV for at least 15 years. I wish I could see things in a more positive light but I have to be pragmatic.

However the fact remains that if people honestly evaluate their intra-city driving requirements the current average 80 mile range BEVs meet more than 85% of their needs (not withstanding winter weather range loss and range loss due to heavy HVAC use winter or summer). While I would “like” more range on my FFE, predominantly to facilitate a dependable winter and highway-speed range of 80 miles I am not willing to pay a significant premium for the moderate battery capacity increase (say 10KWHrs) that is required for that. Nor am I willing to “give away” the back seat of my FFE to house a larger battery to give me that range. But that is my “issue” as I have only once had a back seat passenger in the almost 8 months of owning Montgomery.

Now if those 200 mile BEVs Bolts etc can truly give 150 miles of winter and common highway speed range AND they are compatible with an extant widespread DCQC infrastructure AND they come in at a base unit price of $35K - $40K, THEN they become the “game changer” Mary Barra claims for the Bolt. (Yes that extant DCQC infrastructure is the Tesla Supercharger network for which I would happily pay Tesla’s $2K vehicle-lifetime access fee. It is a good business model that the legacy auto companies need to adopt even though it means “co-operating” with the current “industry disrupter” for both their own good and more importantly the consumers benefit.) A BEV version of the Fusion with those capabilities should be doable in the $35K-$40K price range for Ford and a $50K/$55K version of the MKZ nicely equipped would truly be compelling cars that could challenge Tesla in the Model 3’s target demographic.

Until these capabilities are provided the 200 mile range BEVs are going to remain an “outlier” with a far more limited utility than many consumers and probably the manufacturers truly realize.

Thanks and Cheers

Carl
 
cpwl said:
The proposed Bolt and any other non-Tesla 200 mile range BEVs are a bit of a quandary until there is sufficient DCQC infrastructure to effectively support long range (greater than 120 mile one-way) intercity travel. In comparison to the 80 mile range BEVs the increased range of the Bolt and Gen 2 Leaf can only:

a. give many people a “warm fuzzy” about being able to do their daily commute and additional daily shopping/visiting or entertainment travels,
b. enhance their ability to undertake short notice around town trips after a regular day’s commute or conducted several weekend trips (shopping rounds followed by entertainment or visiting trips the same day) without a requirement to “top off” the battery,
c. enable better range in adverse weather conditions, notably the cold winters experienced in much of the US and almost all of Canada giving a reliable winter range of perhaps 100 miles, and
d. allow a restricted amount of inter-city travel of approximately 120-135 miles between cities. (Any inter-city travel also has a significant component of inner city travel as one departs home and then arrives at the destination consuming on average probably 35 miles, give or take)
Very well said. This is why I find a 200-mile BEV only minimally more attractive than the FFE. The new Leaf with the 107 miles of range is more attractive than a 200-mile BEV that costs more. This is why I hope to be able to afford a CPO Model S by next summer when our FFE lease ends.
 
You both (cpwl and hybridbear) are speaking as current limited-range EV drivers.

The biggest point there is:
a. give many people a “warm fuzzy” about being able to do their daily commute and additional daily shopping/visiting or entertainment travels,

That "warm fuzzy" will sell a lot of 200 mile EVs as more people will see that they can fit into their daily usage. Not everyone needs to take that 1000 mile road trip, and when they do they, more often than not, fly. Can my 200 mile EV get me to the airport and back? yes? I'm good.

I know of at least one person who will actually fly for a 100 mile trip or so simply because they aren't doing the driving and can use the time in the air working--even though driving would actually be more convenient as the time would be shorter and it would be less expensive (especially now with gas sooo cheap!).
 
I have never felt that DCQC is that important. I understand I am in a multicar family and I don't need to depend on just one car to do everything. In my case, if I go intercity, I take a Volt...it is far easier to deal with than even a Tesla. The idea of the nationwide network of superchargers is cool, but so is the existence of a zillion gas stations. Add 300 miles in five minutes...how easy is that?

If I were limited to a single car and expected a lot of intercity use, I would choose an ERV. For $30K I get all the flexibility an $80K Tesla provides.

Or, like one fellow I know, get a pusher trailer...he drives an EV between Utah and Los Angeles periodically with complete flexibility. Once he arrives, he detaches the trailer til ready to return. How about a network of rental pusher trailers? No need for nationwide supercharging and no need for a second car.

In the case of a BEV, a genuine 150 mile car (200 mile rated) will cover 100% of my day-to-day use. I don't need to worry about DCQC, I carry the energy with me. An 80 mile car doesn't do this...I need access to workplace or public charging to get through the day.

No car will do 100% of what one might need. What if you want to pick up a sheet of drywall? What if you want to tow a trailer? What if.....???? In those rare cases, borrow or rent whatever is needed. Don't drive a crew-cab dually diesel pickup truck all year long just because you might...

Pick a car that will do 95% or even 98% of what you need. 98% covers 51 weeks out of 52. The rest of the time, borrow or rent. If you have a family, adjust the fleet.
 
michael said:
I have never felt that DCQC is that important. I understand I am in a multicar family and I don't need to depend on just one car to do everything. In my case, if I go intercity, I take a Volt...it is far easier to deal with than even a Tesla. The idea of the nationwide network of superchargers is cool, but so is the existence of a zillion gas stations. Add 300 miles in five minutes...how easy is that?

If I were limited to a single car and expected a lot of intercity use, I would choose an ERV. For $30K I get all the flexibility an $80K Tesla provides.
That used to be my attitude as well. Hence our fleet of the Focus Electric & Fusion Energi. We're 100% EV around the city, only using gas for longer trips. But, lately my opinion is changing. The pollution from ICE vehicles is just too much. I've been especially impacted the last few months. I got sick with a cold back in October. Since then I have not been able to shake the lingering cough (bronchitis). Through some data collecting & analyzing, I've been able to determine that a large part of my lingering cough is triggered by particulate pollution. The MN Pollution Control Agency says that about 50% of our local particulate matter pollution comes from vehicle exhaust in the Twin Cities area. Our apartment is located in a very high traffic area. Between local freeways & busy city streets, hundreds of thousands of vehicles pass within 1 mile of our home each day. Since I work so close to home, similar numbers hold true for by my office. In contrast, my parents live in a residential area, with about 1/7 the amount of vehicle traffic within a 1 mile radius of their house compared to near our apartment. When I go spend time at my parents' house, my cough pretty much vanishes. On holidays/weekends with far less vehicle traffic near our apartment my cough is less severe. I've also been tracking daily Air Quality Index (AQI) levels & comparing to how much I am coughing. This is a measure of the total particulate matter in the air in the Twin Cities. The days with more pollutant dispersion are days that I cough less, days with wind out of the SE are days that I cough more since pollutants are carried into our region by the wind on those days.

Unfortunately, the doctor says that there isn't really anything I can do about the cough beyond what I am doing already. It should go away next spring once the weather warms up. It seems to be fairly common in MN that people can get sick in fall & have the cough linger all throughout the cold winter. I'm really hoping that my cough won't last that long.

But, with what I've learned about the sources of particulate matter & how it is personally affecting my health, I want to go 100% electric as soon as possible. In this case, "possible" is limited by budgetary constraints & by the lack of Superchargers in the Upper Midwest.
 
jmueller065 said:
You both (cpwl and hybridbear) are speaking as current limited-range EV drivers.

The biggest point there is:
a. give many people a “warm fuzzy” about being able to do their daily commute and additional daily shopping/visiting or entertainment travels,

That "warm fuzzy" will sell a lot of 200 mile EVs as more people will see that they can fit into their daily usage. Not everyone needs to take that 1000 mile road trip, and when they do they, more often than not, fly. Can my 200 mile EV get me to the airport and back? yes? I'm good.

I know of at least one person who will actually fly for a 100 mile trip or so simply because they aren't doing the driving and can use the time in the air working--even though driving would actually be more convenient as the time would be shorter and it would be less expensive (especially now with gas sooo cheap!).


Jamie,

Your comment that the “warm fuzzy” will sell many 200 mile BEVs is uncontested. People often buy on emotion and the 200 mile range will pull many more emotional strings than do the FFE, current Leaf, BMW I3 etc.. But the utility increase afforded by the 200 mile BEV will not (in my never humble opinion) meet the claims being made by GM and presumed by various EV proponents. It certainly won’t make long range intercity travel in BEVs common with the current, or even near to mid-future, state of the DCQC infrastructure.

Indeed not everyone wants to take 1000 mile road trips and not withstanding your acquaintance who will fly for a 100 mile trip, many though do want to take 200-400 mile (one way) road trips. For most people the personal vehicle is still the most convenient and preferred transportation choice for trips of that distance in regards to both the intercity trip itself and travel while at the destination. Pretty much every month I take a 300 mile trip to Sudbury to see my brother and ailing mother. A Greyhound bus is cost competitive but it is a public bus; the train is more expensive and very inconvenient while flying is just too expensive to do so on a monthly basis and means riding in one of the small noisy rough riding turboprops so the personal car is the least expensive, most convenient and flexible as well as overall enjoyable – most of the time driving is not yet a chore! And for this travel range the car is still the fastest option for me. While the ICE most commonly used is perfectly capable it is simply a second rate driving experience compared to Montgomery. And as much as I hate to say it even the big first iteration of the S-Class Mercedes I inherited from my father is not as relaxing as the FFE, primarily due to the exhaust note although there are other ways I feel the FFE is better as well. That trip though is of course not possible with the FFE and for the foreseeable future would not be possible in the Bolt or other non-Tesla 200 mile range BEVs. I doubt if I am outside the 90th percentile of the travelling public in my preference to drive this range. Thus there is very little utility increase for me in the 200 mile non-Tesla BEV.

I’ve yet to live in a city where my 80 mile BEV won’t get me to the airport so again the 200 mile BEV doesn’t significantly improve on the utility I currently have in my FFE. This is just one more data point in my assertion that the current 80 mile range BEVs meet over 85% of peoples actual daily intra-city transportation requirements.

Thanks and Cheers

Carl
 
Speaking of the Bolt

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-caught-undisguised.html
 
cpwl said:
jmueller065 said:
You both (cpwl and hybridbear) are speaking as current limited-range EV drivers.


I’ve yet to live in a city where my 80 mile BEV won’t get me to the airport so again the 200 mile BEV doesn’t significantly improve on the utility I currently have in my FFE. This is just one more data point in my assertion that the current 80 mile range BEVs meet over 85% of peoples actual daily intra-city transportation requirements.

Thanks and Cheers

Carl

I can't get to work and back on an 80 mile (now a 60 mile) car. If it weren't for the fact that my employer provides charging, I would need a 110 mile guaranteed under all circumstances car. Or an EREV.

I go to the airport a half dozen times a year. I go to work 200 days a year

I would generally fly to San Francisco (400 miles one way) , but I would drive to Santa Barbara (100 miles one way). A 200 mile car with a little squirt of charge at some point will do that well. So will an ERV. An 80 mile BEV, not practical.
 
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