Is Ford going to sitck with the EV or not?

I am concerned about the survivability of the Ford EV. I see no FFE's for sale in the Auto section of the paper. my dealer has none. I live in Massachusetts. Is this cause for concern? I want the world to enjoy this magnificent car as much as I do.

I think it is pretty obvious that Ford isn't pursuing the FFE all that much. They continue to sell them, but they definitely don't advertise them. I've read some things here and there, some of which is from Ford and other material that isn't, and my impression is that:
1) The idea wasn't originally theirs to begin with. I forget where the concept came from but it was more of a feasibility study that turned into an actual product.
2) The drive system isn't theirs. They got it from Magna. Although I think it is great they use an ICE car converted to elctric as a bolt in option, it doesn't show as much commitment as say a Nissan Leaf that is built from the ground up...although it looks alot like a Versa...and the Chevy Volt looks like a Cruze.

I think that Ford is still on the fence about jumping on the 100% electric bandwagon. I think they are very proud of their Plugins like the Fusion and Cmax Energy. I believe they like having their foot in the door with a BEV so if EVs really take-off, then they have experience and a bit of know-how regarding it.

One other thing, the EVs have been more expensive to produce than they sell them for and, it takes a long time to develop a car from scratch. They may have gone with the Magna solution for now while they concentrate on a home brewed version. This would be nice if it were true. A lot of companies do things like these. For instance, Honda wanted an SUV, so they got an Izuzu Rodeo and called it a Honda Passport. Honda eventually came out with a Pilot, killed the passport, and took a big chunk of the SUV marketshare.

So you never know. Bottom line, if it makes money, you can bet they would sell as many as they possibly could. If another product makes more money, then they might focus more on that product....just makes good business.

This is just my 2 cents on the matter...with little to no research to back up my statements.

But I will agree with you...the FFE is a great little car.

I think you are forgetting WHY Ford made the FFE (regardless of how it got the technology): California's Zero Emissions Vehicle mandate.

Ford isn't making the car due to market pressures; its making the car due to regulatory pressures. At some point the FFE may go away but they will still need a ZEV that they can sell in California. They may take what they have learned from Magna and have them electrify a different car (perhaps more than one maybe a Ford Fiesta Electric?).

Look at the law:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/2011zevreg/attachb3.pdf

In 2018 4.5% of all the vehicles they sell in California must be ZEV, that number increases for each model year after that. Ford (and everyone else) are going to have to have more than one ZEV to satisfy the requirements of that law. Look at 2025+ almost 1/4 of the cars they sell in CA must be ZEV.

Despite your fears I doubt the FFE will go away; I think Ford will start making more of them (and electrifying more vehicle lines to boot).

One way or another, we'll know shortly: The Focus (all of them) are due for a refresh/redesign in 2014....

BTW: I love mine and tell everyone I can about it ...

Yeah, I don't disagree that the ZEV requirement is a motivation for developing the FFE, but I don't think it is a motivation for them to continue this particular model. I think the FFE is a bit of an experiment or a data point on the learning curve. Whether that is fact or not, that's just the way it seems. I'm sure Ford is going to go mainstream with an EV or two (Mustang Cobra Electric?), but the question is timing.

Anyway, here's one of the articles...it is interesting if you haven't heard much about the history of the FFE. http://www.autonews.com/article/20110801/OEM01/308019963/#

Ford has mapped out a "Sustainable Technologies and Alternative Fuels Plan", and have been marching to it since 2007.

Here's a previous post on the subject, which has links to Ford's plan:

http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1403#p6484

As I see it, is that Ford is progressing as planned with the FFE, and that BEVs are here to stay. Next step for Ford, according to their plan, is to evolve the BEV system. Perhaps that means in-house vs. Magna? Long term, though, the only mention of BEV is to leverage, presumably for other alternative fuel technologies like hydrogen fuel cell. But that's a long ways away, and I believe it still implies that there will still be BEVs in the lineup.

One thing we can probably count on - Ford will not make a purpose-built EV, which suits me just fine since most Ford products are aesthetically pleasing:

"We are basing our electrified vehicle products on our highest-volume global platforms. This approach offers tremendous opportunities for production economies of scale. For example, the Focus Electric, C-MAX Energi and C-MAX Hybrid are based on Ford’s next-generation compact, or “C-car” platform, and are being built alongside gas-powered Focus models at Ford’s Michigan Assembly Plant. This plant is the first in the world to build vehicles with five different fuel-efficient powertrain technologies on the same line.

Globally, we expect to build as many as 2 million vehicles per year on the C-car platform. The new Fusion Hybrid and the Fusion Energi PHEV are based on our global mid-sized platform. This flexibility allows us to switch production between different vehicles as needed to meet changing consumer demand. We also share many of the electrified components between the different vehicles. These strategies are key to making electrified vehicles affordable."

I thought I read or heard somewhere that they will likely not electrify the Fiesta; discussion implied that it was too small and would be too much of a compromise on interior space. Sorry I don't recall where I saw that; otherwise I'd provide the link/reference.

Interesting in that while we're discussing this, so is Ford: They are considering making the new Mustang! EV:
http://insideevs.com/ford-says-electric-is-one-option-under-consideration-for-redesigned-mustang/

Time will tell. It's long term viability will depend on it improving its range.

I think most EVs are nice concept cars and second cars. I know a few people with Tesla's and they aren't there only car.
And with a car that gets less than 70 miles, it's very unlikely that you'd have that as your only car. Which means people have to look at "is this worth it for a second car at $40K?" I know the rebates are great now, so are the leasing options and so on, but how long will that last? If you need to keep giving people $10K back and give them no money down and $200 a month leases, it probably means people aren't buying them. And with the FFE people haven't been.

True Ford hasn't marketing it very well and many dealers don't even carry them or talk about them, but when I went to a couple of different dealers, they kept trying to get me to buy the Fusion Energi Plugin. And the problem with most of these cars is they are designed and engineered poorly compared to a Tesla. The trunk is rather useless on most of these. Whereas the Tesla has a trunk in the back or extra seats for kids and space in the front. They actually designed an EV from scratch. Ford kind of took other models and tried to force an EV into it. Nothing wrong with that, but selling to some random customer a car that gets about 70 miles before you need to re-charge, there just aren't a ton of charging stations around, there isn't any trunk space, and many of these EVs are not cheap compared to hybrids.

I think the biggest challenge will come from their own models. Somebody going into a store to look at cars sees a Hybrid vs a Hybrid Plugin vs an EV and the Hybrid gets just as many miles as the plugin and costs about $10K less, people are going to want to look at that first. Nobody wants to hear "studies show most people drive under 100 miles per day" especially considering half the population in certain areas don't even live in a place where they can charge their car every night.

And honestly, if Tesla does make a car for under $40K that is just as nice as the Model S, none of these other companies are going to be able to compete. At least not with what they have now.

Likely directly related to California, I assume Ford allocates their cars in a logical manner. Lots to California. A some to other places that are perfect for the vehicle. Very few to places that are not perfect (anyplace with super cold winters).

I bought mine in Dallas/Fort Worth which is a fairly good market place. Mild winters, for the most part. And an average commute that is perfect for the car.

And yet, there were only about 3, in the entire metroplex, when I bought mine!

3.

pjam3 said:

And honestly, if Tesla does make a car for under $40K that is just as nice as the Model S, none of these other companies are going to be able to compete. At least not with what they have now.

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I don't think Tesla is likely to be able to make a comparable car as cheaply as a major manufacturer. The Model S has a stripped-to-the bone base price of over $71,000 before tax credit (and that's with cloth seats....they call them "textile"). A well equipped one will go for around $90K. They are VERY expensive cars, comparable to BMW, Mercedes, etc.

michael said:

pjam3 said:

And honestly, if Tesla does make a car for under $40K that is just as nice as the Model S, none of these other companies are going to be able to compete. At least not with what they have now.

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I don't think Tesla is likely to be able to make a comparable car as cheaply as a major manufacturer. The Model S has a stripped-to-the bone base price of over $71,000 before tax credit (and that's with cloth seats....they call them "textile"). A well equipped one will go for around $90K. They are VERY expensive cars, comparable to BMW, Mercedes, etc.

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Oh I agree, i've test drove and tried to build out the cheapest Tesla I could and it cost around $90K. One with a lot of the nice to haves runs you over $100K. That $70K is a bit of a marketing number because nobody would spend $70K on a base model car that comes with practically no cool features. It's cool now because it's an EV, but I don't know anybody who would just buy a base model Tesla. And the $7500 credit is already included in that car. When you build out the car, they already include a ton of assumptions like $7500, so when it costs $95K, that cost already included the $7500.

I think it's going to be hard to get under $40K because they have no other cars to sell to the masses. Cars aren't a buy every year kind of thing.
And Tesla doesn't have a model yet where it's for the masses. A few years back the assumption was the Model S would be around $50K. They didn't come close.

pjam3 said:

A few years back the assumption was the Model S would be around $50K. They didn't come close.

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Now that you mention it, I remember the possible $50,000 Tesla. Lol, yea, not even close.

jloucks said:

pjam3 said:

A few years back the assumption was the Model S would be around $50K. They didn't come close.

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Now that you mention it, I remember the possible $50,000 Tesla. Lol, yea, not even close.

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It would have been great if they did come close, but all the $70K cost is a marketing ploy. The car is really a $100K car that will run you over $1200 a month. Many people don't even pay that in rent or mortgage, much less for a car. The other marketing strategy is the buy back idea, which sounds great, except the idea is that EVs will get better and better. And in 3-5 years most of us will want the latest and greatest EV models. It's kind of like the Prius and the hybrid model. Nobody wants to go back and buy the 2003 Prius. It's not really worth it. It's a bit different model because the Tesla is a $100K car, but to me, it's a $100K because it's electric and a new concept, it's not a $100K car because it's one of those "buy a Lamborghini or Tesla" conversations.

Sorry Pjam, I'll disagree with you about the Tesla. It is a $100,000 car. It compares very nicely with a Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series. Those cars bump the $100,000 area. Tesla did a fantastic job at matching the style, options, and luxury level of those other cars.

Don't know when you priced a Lambo last, but $100,000 doesn't get you even in the door anymore.

Tesla did have a lower end model with a small battery. I can't remember what it cost, but it wasn't all that far north of $50,000 (I might have been counting state rebates and tax incentives to get to that number). They dropped that model because nobody was buying the smaller battery. And if you read that great article about the guy doing his East Coast trip, he pines for the larger range battery and how he shouldn't have made that compromise when he bought the car.

EVA said:

Sorry Pjam, I'll disagree with you about the Tesla. It is a $100,000 car. It compares very nicely with a Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series. Those cars bump the $100,000 area. Tesla did a fantastic job at matching the style, options, and luxury level of those other cars.

Don't know when you priced a Lambo last, but $100,000 doesn't get you even in the door anymore.

Tesla did have a lower end model with a small battery. I can't remember what it cost, but it wasn't all that far north of $50,000 (I might have been counting state rebates and tax incentives to get to that number). They dropped that model because nobody was buying the smaller battery. And if you read that great article about the guy doing his East Coast trip, he pines for the larger range battery and how he shouldn't have made that compromise when he bought the car.

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tesla has had two models in their history, the Roadster and the Model S. Both are $100K+ cars. They talked about a car under $50k, even had rumors out that the Model S would be that car, but they never actually had a car for under $50K. Some Concept car doesn't count as a legit model because every company has concept cars that never get made. They market their battery packs to the likes of Toyota and so on (Rav 4 EV), but that's not a Tesla car.

EVA said:

Tesla did have a lower end model with a small battery. I can't remember what it cost, but it wasn't all that far north of $50,000 (I might have been counting state rebates and tax incentives to get to that number). They dropped that model because nobody was buying the smaller battery. And if you read that great article about the guy doing his East Coast trip, he pines for the larger range battery and how he shouldn't have made that compromise when he bought the car.

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I believe Models S originally had 4 trim options- 40 kWh, 60 kWh, 85 kWh, and Performance. The 40 kWh version started at $59900 before incentive. They scrapped the 40 kWh option saying only 4% of reservation holders opted for it. Those 4% at the time of Tesla's decision could still get an S for that price but it would be software-limited to 40 kWh of the actual 60 kWh pack. Of course it's no longer an option for new reservations.

The problem with Tesla's reasoning was that the lag time from reservation to delivery was close to a year at that point, and depended on trim- they were pumping out P versions, then 85, then 60... So there could have been, and probably were, a lot of folks seriously considering the 40 but having no urgency to part with $5k and get on the waiting list. Like there are the few fanatics who camp out for the latest tech, then here are the rest who amble into the store 1 month later. I for one seriously considered spending 1.5 times the cost of my FFE for twice the range and all the thrill and comforts of a bare-bones S, but while waiting for the list to whittle down, I kept my options open and found the FFE to meet my needs.

Anyway I imagine the promised Model E will end up very much like the 40 kWh S would have been. If the car's smaller/ lighter and power is tamed, range on 40 kWh could improve from 160 to 200. With the same size battery a bit cheaper in a few years, some sacrifice in materials quality, and less material for a smaller car, cost might come down $10-15k. If they can get it down to $47k, they will advertise <$40k after fed credit.

After all adjustments, discounts, government money, etc. my FFE cost less than $26K (capitalized basis for the lease). Add $1K for the EVSE, and the all-in cost is about $27K.

For the cost of decently equipped Tesla, one could buy three FFE's.

I stopped by the local Tesla store a few days ago. Things that we got "included" in the FFE are extra cost options on the Tesla. You want Sirius radio? Backup camera/sensors? Such things are all options. And you can't even lease it...it's purchase only.

The Tesla looks great, I'd love to have one, but it is totally in the luxury price range. The FFE is one step lower in capability, but vastly less expensive.

michael said:

After all adjustments, discounts, government money, etc. my FFE cost less than $26K (capitalized basis for the lease). Add $1K for the EVSE, and the all-in cost is about $27K.

For the cost of decently equipped Tesla, one could buy three FFE's.

I stopped by the local Tesla store a few days ago. Things that we got "included" in the FFE are extra cost options on the Tesla. You want Sirius radio? Backup camera/sensors? Such things are all options. And you can't even lease it...it's purchase only.

The Tesla looks great, I'd love to have one, but it is totally in the luxury price range. The FFE is one step lower in capability, but vastly less expensive.

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I actually priced out a tesla, was going to put money down on one, I was a fan back when they just had the roadster. So I've been following them a long time. They had conversations around cheaper models, but they Model S didn't really come out till 2012 and most people didn't get one till this year. It was never a $50K car. The $50K was a concept and everybody thought that's what the Model S was going to be, except it never happened.

And Tesla already includes those tax incentives in their price, not after. So when you price out a Model S and say it runs around $95K, well that means $95K including all the incentives and tax benefits. They do that on purpose to make it look less expensive. They like to market a lot of crap like $100/HR to pump gas, so you'd save such and such per year. All these things you learn when you are actually going to buy a Tesla. It's a lot of BS marketing, but for most people buying a Tesla, they aren't really concerned about mileage or cost. It's a nice car and it's electric. And it goes fast and it gets 200+ miles.

My 2014 FFE after all rebates and incentives and with all the technology included cost me around $25K. Some people are paying like $250 per month with very little down on a 3 year lease. Think about that. If you buy a base Tesla, it'll run you around $80K and cost you over $1K per month. Beautiful car, awesome care, but really, when a car costs as much as some peoples mortgages, it's not even close to being affordable to 99 percent of people. And hell to some people who might be able to afford it, it's a huge huge purchase. I can't imagine a husband coming home and saying, "hey i just got us into a $1200 a month purchase.." And then tell her it's a car.

And honestly as much as people complain about Ford not marketing the FFE, Tesla never bothered to do much with the 40Kw EV concept. So they then came out and said not enough interest, and moved on. Will they ever make a $50K model? Who knows. They didn't seem to want to ever sell one in the first place, it was all just marketing.

And I, like a lot of people, call BS on Tesla's $50K car that had little interest. I was looking at the $100K car and was seriously considering it. If they had a Modes S cheaper for say $55K that got close to 200 miles, maybe didn't have all the bells and whistles as the $100K model, but came close enough, I'd be driving the Tesla Model S Cheaper right now and not a FFE. And I bet many people are similar. I mean it' snot like the FFE is a huge success for Ford as it is, so it's just a bit of marketing on Tesla's part to say "hey nobody wants to buy the cheaper model."

There would be far more people who could make a case to buy a $50K or less car, I mean Pickup trucks these days can run $50K, the Ford Energi Plugin is like $40K+, the new BMW i 3 is like $50K, so the excuse that nobody wanted that model, is a poor excuse to me. They just didn't want the cheap model to be the super successful one. Many people curious about EVs, but don't want to jump into the "crap I only have 65 mile range" would probably jump at the chance to buy some $50K Tesla that gets even 150 miles.

http://jalopnik.com/laptesla-kills-the-50-000-model-s-makes-the-media-the-464831618

Thank you Dmen for the history lesson. I knew there was a reason why I seriously considered a Tesla around 5 months ago, that $60 car. In my reasoning at the time, that wasn't that far north of the FFE. And you got a heck of a lot more car.

Well the issue was moot, since that $60 car was no longer available.