jmueller065
Posts: 2396
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:36 am
Location: Southeastern MI
Contact: Website

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:41 am

pcph wrote:That sounds bad. Sounds like something I should avoid at all costs. Unfortunately I don't have a better solution right now, but at least winter is over. Come next winter, I may be able to figure out something, such as interior parking.
Why is it bad? My FFE survived 3 Michigan winters sitting outside every day cold soaked in the winter. When I returned it at the end of the lease I had no noticeable battery degradation (30k miles). Two of those winters had some of the coldest weather we've had around here in a long time with many days below 0F.

Cold does not damage the battery, it merely makes it store less electricity--once its warmed back up its fine. Heat, on the other hand, can truly do some nasty stuff.
2018 Cajun Red Chevy Bolt
2016 Magnetic C-Max Energi (lease returned)
2014 Sunset Escape
2014 Thor Axis (V-10)
2013 Focus Electric (lease returned Jan 2016 for the C-Max above)
https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/

pcph
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Montréal, QC

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:50 am

jmueller065 wrote:Why is it bad?
I don't know. Superstition? I was under the impression that freezing the battery would permanently damage it. Your report is greatly encouraging. I will no longer worry about leaving it in the cold. It rarely gets very hot up here in the Great North, so the battery will probably not get very hot very often either. Thanks for your reply!

ghiebert
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Vancouver BC

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:10 am

pcph wrote:I was under the impression that freezing the battery would permanently damage it.
Haha. I watched a YouTube video last night that talked about this very mythconception, as it applies to 12V car batteries. The wisdom shared was that you should always opt to store your batteries in cooler temperatures. They are less capable at delivering power when cold because their electrolytes are frozen up, but they keep better for essentially the same reason.
2017 FFE Magnetic

cpwl
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 5:35 am
Location: Gatineau, QC, Canada

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:22 am

pcph wrote:
jmueller065 wrote:Why is it bad?
I don't know. Superstition? I was under the impression that freezing the battery would permanently damage it. Your report is greatly encouraging. I will no longer worry about leaving it in the cold. It rarely gets very hot up here in the Great North, so the battery will probably not get very hot very often either. Thanks for your reply!
pcph, If the battery were to "cold soak" for an extended period at extreme low temperatures there is a minor risk that the electrolyte gel could freeze and physically rupture the battery cell casings. But that level of extended cold is a corner case that would rarely if ever be encountered. As long as you take care of the battery by plugging it in whenever you are at home in the winter you should have no fundamental battery degradation due to cold. I'm in Gatineau so we have the same weather day to day, near enough as to make no difference anyway. I'll do a battery rundown test a bit later in the spring to confirm my battery capacity but all other indicators point to no significant degradation at 2 years and 27K kms. The GOM gives me the same readings in the same conditions as when I got the car and there are no noticeable performance changes according to "seat of the pants" feedback. Every other parameter monitored by the car is essentially unchanged from the day I took delivery so while Li-ion battery theory says there has to have been some level of degradation, it is, to date anyway, un-measurable and has not affected day-to-day use.

I'll report back on the battery run-down test when I get it done. In the meantime just take care of your battery by plugging the car in at every opportunity during the winter (and really hot sunny days in summer) thereby allowing the battery TMS take care of the battery.


Thanks and Cheers
Carl

triangles
Posts: 1086
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:21 am

pcph wrote:
jmueller065 wrote:Why is it bad?
I don't know. Superstition? I was under the impression that freezing the battery would permanently damage it. Your report is greatly encouraging. I will no longer worry about leaving it in the cold. It rarely gets very hot up here in the Great North, so the battery will probably not get very hot very often either. Thanks for your reply!
My understanding is that there's nothing harmful to the battery to let it cold soak at sub freezing temps. The only potential danger I'm aware of is (L3) fast charging in sub freezing temps. Supposedly according to this tech article, you can have lithium metal plate out of the electrolyte severely degrading the battery when fast charging in sub freezing temps. Who knows if the battery type in the FFE would be susceptible to this but if it was I think ford would be smart enough to have the battery TMS heat the battery up to whatever minimal temp is safe to charge at before allowing it to charge.
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

triangles
Posts: 1086
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:13 pm

Interestingly I found this proclaiming the danger of charging at sub zero temps:
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/qu ... -harm-them
and this linked in the above where they talk about neutron imaging the plating lithium metal while charging at -20C: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 105638.htm
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

pcph
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Montréal, QC

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:05 pm

I also note that it says that charging lithium batteries fast is bad. The faster the charge, the greater the effect on the integrity of the battery.

Back home after a low temperature commute, still using heat all the way. I was down to 60% battery remaining. This is almost a worst case test. It appears that I lose about 30% range in the worst case scenario. At this time, with my current needs, it seems laughable (no range anxiety whatsoever), but if the battery fades at least 25%, I might start to get worried. At least I can say I'm happy to have waited for the 2017 for the longer range (in September 2016, I had an opportunity to purchase a 2016 I had tried on the dealer lot, but I refused, opting to wait for the 2017).

Omen87
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:31 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:22 pm

I'm a little jelly of the range...

Even though in my smaller town I have no need for even the original stated 76 miles of range on my car. But I also can't really leave town with it. I'm afraid to attempt a 55 mile trip at highway speeds. :lol:
2012 Oxford White Focus Electric

pcph
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm
Location: Montréal, QC

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:30 am

Omen87 wrote:I'm afraid to attempt a 55 mile trip at highway speeds. :lol:
As long as you don't heat, you should be perfectly fine... Right? I don't have enough experience yet to tell 100%, but speed doesn't seem to have such a huge effect on range. You can also drive like a grandma in the right lane if speed is an issue.

Having excessive range for my needs was one of the criteria for buying for me. A year or more ago, the Leaf was the only option. With this kind of range, I don't "need" to watch my driving habits. I can drive sloppily and never worry about range... And I like it! Perhaps I'm not yet fully in the EV mindset...

Edit : This morning, the (fully charged) Focus says 115 km range... Instead of the usual 180! Looks like it really didn't like yesterday's stress test and greatly reduced the range in response to that.

jmueller065
Posts: 2396
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:36 am
Location: Southeastern MI
Contact: Website

Re: New owner of 2017 FFE

Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:25 am

pcph wrote:As long as you don't heat, you should be perfectly fine... Right? I don't have enough experience yet to tell 100%, but speed doesn't seem to have such a huge effect on range. You can also drive like a grandma in the right lane if speed is an issue.
Um yeah as long as you keep it below 60mph/100kph speed doesn't affect range too much. Above that and it is rather noticeable--especially if you're running flat out at 86mph :roll: :shock: :lol:
2018 Cajun Red Chevy Bolt
2016 Magnetic C-Max Energi (lease returned)
2014 Sunset Escape
2014 Thor Axis (V-10)
2013 Focus Electric (lease returned Jan 2016 for the C-Max above)
https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/

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