Jamez
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:26 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Woes of winter range

Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:17 am

I don't know if it's been mentioned or pointed out, but "It's cold outside - plug the vehicle in" warning does show up for me often these days. Whilst parked - plugged in or not - the FFE will condition the battery - consuming the traction pack's available charge.

I've seen a loss of 5kms range over 8 hours at -16C (sorry, I don't know American ;) )

Having said that, with preconditioning, good driving practices and micromanaging the defroster, I'm able to keep my kWh/km down and see decent range.
Jamez

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2016 FFE Kona blue
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2005 MINI Cooper S JCW
2011 Volvo S80

triangles
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Woes of winter range

Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:12 pm

Jamez wrote:I don't know if it's been mentioned or pointed out, but "It's cold outside - plug the vehicle in" warning does show up for me often these days. Whilst parked - plugged in or not - the FFE will condition the battery - consuming the traction pack's available charge.
I"m pretty sure this isn't true. I left my FFE parked from before Thanksgiving thru 12/27. It had about a half charge when I parked it and and still had about a half charge when awakened from her slumber.

On a side note: I just completed nearly a 55mi (google said 55mi, trip meter indicated a few less) journey at 28F and had 32% battery left and 25mi on the GoM (That's about 88km at -2C and 40km for our friendly neighbors to the north :) ). I achieved this by pulling out all the tricks up my sleeves. Charged, preheated to 85F 1/2hr before leaving, all in a heated garage. Absolutely zero heater use. Cracked passenger window and used a cheap ass harbor freight 12v fan/heater for about 1/4 of the drive to keep at least a peep hole clear out of the windshield. After that the windshield stayed clear with the passenger window cracked. No heated seat usage. Kept speeds at mostly 45mph or less. There was about 15 miles I had to go 55mph which caused Wh/mi to go into the 260's Over all average for the trip 247 Wh/mi. Before attempting this I would not have thought it possible. My winter norms are usually pushing 400Wh/mi
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

WattsUp
Posts: 2113
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:58 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:04 am

triangles wrote:
Jamez wrote:Whilst parked - plugged in or not - the FFE will condition the battery - consuming the traction pack's available charge.
I"m pretty sure this isn't true.
It isn't true.

The FFE will only condition the battery when it is plugged in or the ignition is turned on.

When the FFE is not plugged in and the ignition is turned off, the battery will eventually assume the ambient temperature (which can be verified using an OBD scanning app like ForSCAN to check various internal temperature sensor readings).
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kalel14
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:16 am

triangles wrote:
Jamez wrote:
On a side note: I just completed nearly a 55mi...journey at 28F ... Absolutely zero heater use. Cracked passenger window ...to keep at least a peep hole clear out of the windshield. ... No heated seat usage. Kept speeds at mostly 45mph or less.
It took over a hundred years, but there's finally a Ford as comfortable to take on a winter drive as the Model T was.

Jamez
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:26 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:11 pm

You guys have had yours longer and dug into it further, but on 3 separate occasions I have returned to the car 8 hours later during -16C ambient temperature to have between 2 to 5 km's range lost.

If that's the traction pack returning to ambient and becoming less efficient (or needing to be heated again when started) then that's what it is I guess. But there IS a loss from sitting in the cold without it being plugged in.
Jamez

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2016 FFE Kona blue
2006 MINI Cooper S JCW
2005 MINI Cooper S JCW
2011 Volvo S80

jmueller065
Posts: 2386
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Contact: Website

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:03 pm

Jamez wrote:You guys have had yours longer and dug into it further, but on 3 separate occasions I have returned to the car 8 hours later during -16C ambient temperature to have between 2 to 5 km's range lost.

If that's the traction pack returning to ambient and becoming less efficient (or needing to be heated again when started) then that's what it is I guess. But there IS a loss from sitting in the cold without it being plugged in.
Sure: 1. its colder, and 2. the battery is now colder and it has to use battery to heat it up.
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triangles
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:23 pm

Jamez, I won't say this for certain as I'm no battery expert but I am drawing on my knowledge of and experience with lithium ion batteries in general. The biggest area where I could be wrong is the assumption that the FFE's battery behaves the same as my general knowledge and experience with other lithium ion batteries. The perceived capacity drops off exponentially the more below freezing the battery temp gets. I say perceived because as a cold lithium battery heats back up thru usage (internal resistance increases the colder the battery is) that "lost" capacity comes back. I don't know how the GoM works so maybe it is seeing some of this "lost" capacity? And you are absolutely correct that you will lose a little bit as a cold soaked battery is also heated by the battery heaters when the FFE is next turned on. I may be wrong but I think you over estimate the lost ranged based on what I have mentioned above. Also FYI all batteries eventually self discharge if left to sitting unused. That is why we put 12v trickle chargers on the 12v battery of equipment that doesn't get used over the winter. Lithium Ion self discharge rate is significantly lower than lead-acid batteries. So much so that no trickle charger is necessary for a stored lithium battery. Your FFE traction battery if left to sit for a year would only lose a couple percent of it's charge. So yes you take a small range penalty if you leave your FFE unplugged out in the cold but the traction battery will not drain completely even if you leave it for months. However, since the electronics pull a constant load on the 12v battery you've got about a month before it will be dead and you'll require a jump start.
2014 Blue Candy FFE
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triangles
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:31 pm

kalel14 wrote:It took over a hundred years, but there's finally a Ford as comfortable to take on a winter drive as the Model T was.
I dunno I think they still have some work to do to get the ventilation as good as a model T. :lol:
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

WattsUp
Posts: 2113
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:58 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Woes of winter range

Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:52 pm

Jamez wrote:You guys have had yours longer and dug into it further, but on 3 separate occasions I have returned to the car 8 hours later during -16C ambient temperature to have between 2 to 5 km's range lost.
Yes, this was probably because the battery simply got COLDER between those two points in time.

It is a matter of physics and chemistry that batteries do not perform as well as they get colder. Further, there is one thing that performs worse than a cold battery: An even colder battery.

The effect I'm talking about is dynamic: the energy potential of a battery is not a "static" thing, changing only when energy is explicitly consumed. Instead, as the battery temperature decreases, the car will measure less and less voltage at the battery, compute less energy available, and thus estimate a shorter range. Conversely, if the battery temperature increases between two points in time, the measured voltage will increase, the car will compute increased energy available, and estimate a longer range.

Again, this isn't a function of some absolute amount of energy somehow being "moved" out of (or into) the battery... it is an intrinsic function of the battery just getting colder (or warmer), chemistry and physical properties changing, and the resulting decrease (or increase) in the battery's potential for releasing energy.

Managing battery performance in extreme weather is one of the things that the "GO Time" feature is for... to give the car time (and extra power) to heat (or cool) the battery just before you want to drive, adjusting the battery temperature closer to an optimal level, and improving its performance.
2013 FFE, Platinum White, Delivered January 2013
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J_PATT
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: Parkville, Missouri

Re: Woes of winter range

Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:38 pm

I have a 2016 and the winter range is terrible. I have a 42-mile commute and with preconditioning and keeping the heater at 65*f I still end up getting to my office with ~7-8 miles of range left. A far cry from 40 miles left during the summer. My drive is mostly 55-65 mph on the highway. It is making me reconsider the car.
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