rabar10
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:18 am

Woes of winter range

Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:18 am

Have had my FFE for just over 2 years now. Yesterday was pretty cold here in the Midwest -- was barely above zero F in the morning, around 15 in the afternoon and then actually warmed up a bit to 20 in the late evening. Car was in the garage, fully charged and preconditioned to either 65 or 72 (I forget which one it's set on). While driving, climate control was set to auto and 68F.

- Drive in to work was 11.9 miles. MFM online shows 5.3kWh consumed, so 445Wh/mi. All roads were clear of snow.
- There was a short (1.0 mile there and 1.0 mile back, according to Google Maps) trip to grab something for lunch, that wasn't captured in the MFM online vehicle trip log report for yesterday. So not sure how many Wh/kWh consumed there. Probably high Wh/mi since the car had cooled off and I don't think the cabin heater ever came off the 5kW mark. Assuming 500Wh/mi, let's say 1kWh consumed in those 2 miles.
- Drive to gym at late afternoon, 6.8 miles, MFM online shows 3.0kWh consumed, so 441Wh/mi.
- Drive home in evening, 9.2 miles, MFM online shows .38kWh consumed, so 413Wh/mi.
- Pulled into garage with either 5 or 6 miles remaining. Assuming it was 6 miles left and 400Wh/mi, that would be 2.4kWh usable left in the pack.

That's a grand total of ~30 miles driven in the day, and a total of ~36 miles 'available'. Woof.

Also shows ~15.5kWh available for use in the winter. I know that number is closer to 20kWh in the summer.

Is my math wrong? Should I not rely on the MFM numbers or is it leaving something out? And are other people seeing 35-40 miles usable in wintertime?

I know I can save energy by turning the cabin heat down/off, cranking seat heater up, bundle up with gloves/hat, using just enough defrost to keep the windshield clear, etc. -- I spent the first winter with the car playing that game. But most people aren't willing to voluntarily do that, and I'm less and less willing to do it now. (I knew I'd make it home so I didn't bother yesterday.)

michael
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:55 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Woes of winter range

Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:52 am

Unfortunately this is looking about right, depending on how many miles you have on the car and what speed your commute averages. Can you give us more info?

For example, if you are in the car for an hour and pulling 6 kW, poof there's a lot of energy used. On cold (for Southern California!!!!!) days, I'm showing usable capacity in the 14's, but usually in the 15's

35 miles at, say, 250 kW/mi would be 8.7, plus another 6 kW to the crappy heater, and you're pretty close to what you are seeing, 15 kWh
2013 FFE Returned after 3 years with 52,000 miles and battery down to 15.2 kWh
2014 Volt returned with 43,000 miles
2014 Volt 26,000 miles
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327
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rabar10
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:18 am

Re: Woes of winter range

Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:00 pm

michael wrote:Unfortunately this is looking about right, depending on how many miles you have on the car and what speed your commute averages. Can you give us more info?
20k miles, and commute speed is 40-50. No interstates. I have seen low 200s Wh/mi on the commute in the summertime.

Capacity loss due to cold temps + too many constant kW for cabin heating = less than half the summertime range.

Something else that bugs me -- the use of a traditional liquid heater core and intermediate fluid to do heating/cooling. I know it's part of the conversion from the Focus ICE line but it annoys me. If I'm burning electrons instead of fuel to heat the cabin, it should work like a big hair dryer -- I want instant heat gosh-darn-it!

(Honestly, I love my car -- I really do -- but when people ask "how far does it go on a charge" and the answer is "somewhere between 35 and 90 miles, depending on weather and driving", that's a big range and the lower number causes a lot of cringing...)

hybridbear
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:46 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Woes of winter range

Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:27 pm

rabar10 wrote:Car was in the garage, fully charged and preconditioned to either 65 or 72 (I forget which one it's set on). While driving, climate control was set to auto and 68F.
Have you tried preheating to 85F? That's what we do in the winter and it helps versus 72. Do you have a L2 EVSE? What's your EVSE's maximum power output?
2013 Ford Focus Electric - Ice Storm - leased through 8/15/16
Replaced by a 2016 Tesla Model S 60D

WattsUp
Posts: 2113
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:58 am
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Woes of winter range

Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:21 pm

rabar10 wrote:the answer is "somewhere between 35 and 90 miles, depending on weather and driving", that's a big range and the lower number causes a lot of cringing...)
Never mind that most people don't drive further than 30 miles from home any given day.
2013 FFE, Platinum White, Delivered January 2013
2017 MS, Midnight Silver Metallic, Delivered February 2017
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rabar10
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:18 am

Re: Woes of winter range

Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:19 am

hybridbear wrote:Have you tried preheating to 85F? That's what we do in the winter and it helps versus 72.
I'll change it to 85F and see what that does to Wh/mi for the morning part of the commute.
hybridbear wrote:Do you have a L2 EVSE? What's your EVSE's maximum power output?
Using the supplied L1 EVSE right now -- I have a Clipper Creek L2 EVSE that is not yet installed (no space in current breaker panel; looking at using local utility's "special EV plan" which would install a separate 40A meter and panel and apply time-of-use rates to that meter, but I haven't finished that yet.
WattsUp wrote: Never mind that most people don't drive further than 30 miles from home any given day.
Including me, but if it wasn't for my wife's ICE I would have gotten a Volt instead of the FFE. Tomorrow I need to drive 80 miles away and then back, so will swap cars to make it happen. We swap cars maybe once a month for stuff like that.

breeves002
Site Moderator
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:56 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Woes of winter range

Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:15 am

The L1 may not even be able to pre-heat the car depending on the ambient temperature... Get that L2 installed! Can't you use the mini breakers that have two circuits in one breaker slot? Or do you have only 100a service? 100a service could be an issue if you're running the dryer and AC with everything else while charging.

I drive about 50 miles round trip for my commute. 90% highway. In the summer I use between 30-40% battery each way with the AC on. In the winter depending on the temperature, its between 40-60% with the heat on. I haven't used over 60% yet, even on the day it was 17ºF here. I always preheat to 85f on my L2 though. I have free L2 charging at work so I have it full for my drive home.
2014 FFE Tuxedo Black - Leather - EV ST
2016 Mustang GT Premium - Performance Package - 401A - 2018 Digital Cluster

CWD
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:53 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Woes of winter range

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:26 am

My winter time range has really fallen off. I'm averaging 48 miles fully charged w/ pre-conditioning the cabin. I use a level 2-240vac/16 amp power cord at home and have a GE Dura-station at work that is capable of 30 amps but at 208vac. Charge times seem about equal-2.5 hours on each end of my trip. The power cord at home seems like it may not be fully charging the pack or the pre-conditioning is using some of the pack juice as sometimes the range is less than 46 miles. Very temperature dependent. We have had some really cold days lately. So cold that I drove the gas guzzler PT Cruiser. A large part of my drive is out in the country and no place I'd want to run low on charge.
2013 Focus Electric in Platinum White, 2003 PT Cruiser GT (gas guzzler), 1946 Farmall A ;-)

jmueller065
Posts: 2396
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Location: Southeastern MI
Contact: Website

Re: Woes of winter range

Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:50 am

CWD wrote:My winter time range has really fallen off. I'm averaging 48 miles fully charged w/ pre-conditioning the cabin. I use a level 2-240vac/16 amp power cord at home and have a GE Dura-station at work that is capable of 30 amps but at 208vac. Charge times seem about equal-2.5 hours on each end of my trip. The power cord at home seems like it may not be fully charging the pack or the pre-conditioning is using some of the pack juice as sometimes the range is less than 46 miles. Very temperature dependent. We have had some really cold days lately. So cold that I drove the gas guzzler PT Cruiser. A large part of my drive is out in the country and no place I'd want to run low on charge.
Oh yeah: When its really cold yes preconditioning does use some juice from the battery and all it can from the EVSE.

Just search my blog for "winter" and you'll find tons of posts about that (and cold LOL): https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
2018 Cajun Red Chevy Bolt
2016 Magnetic C-Max Energi (lease returned)
2014 Sunset Escape
2014 Thor Axis (V-10)
2013 Focus Electric (lease returned Jan 2016 for the C-Max above)
https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/

triangles
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 am
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Woes of winter range

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:49 am

rabar10
The L1 can only supply 1.44kW and the heater uses 5+ kW so you are using battery power to pre-condition. You should be getting 45-50miles if you use pre-conditioning and a level 2 charger. Not all L2 charge stations can even supply full heater power. For example CWD's L2 EVSE is only 16A that's only 3.84kW In that case you'd want to maybe set the go time for 1/2 hour before you go so the L2 can top off the battery again. Your case with the L1 EVSE makes it even worse.

Monday it is forecast to be 24F when I have to drive 56 mi for work. To me I think this is on the harry edge of almost being doable. I do have a L2 charge station that is 25mi into that trip but I'd prefer not to have to use it. Unless I don't think I'll make it the remaining 30ish miles. I am taking the extreme measures of preconditioning in a heated garage and am only using a 12v fan/heater to keep the frost off the windshield. I find cracking the front windows 1/8th to 1/4 of an inch greatly reduces window fogging but also makes it cold :) I also plan to keep speeds 50mph or under if possible.
2014 Blue Candy FFE
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus/2014/triangles/303811 (since this forum doesn't allow BBcode in sigs)

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