The FFE is a free car!

Ford obviously is charging for the FFE, but given the incentives and compared with the cost of an ICE car, you may indeed be getting a "FREE" car. Consider the following:

The FFE is approx $36,000 MSRP (inc destination charges)
Ford gives you $6k back
Negotiate a bit off that with the dealer, add sales tax and fees for your area and you are sitting right around $30k out the door (which, at the moment, Ford lets you pay at zero percent over 5 years).
Subtract the $7500 fed tax incentive (assuming you have $7500 in taxes) + any state incentives ($2500 in my case), and you have a net of $20k for the FFE.

Let's now assume the FFE lasts for 100k miles and then becomes a pile of scrap with zero value. That gives us $20k/100k = $0.20/mile for ownership of the car. Of course we have to charge the car, so assume 300Wh/mile and $0.10/kwh and we have $0.03/mile for electricity cost (obviously usage and cost will vary, but these numbers should be close for most people).

If we ignore things like license tag costs and assume no real maintenance costs, we have a "total" driving cost of $0.23/mile.

Now consider a typical mid sized ICE sedan. After having owned several German sedans, and even a Ford Fusion AWD, I can tell you 20 mpg for around town is a very real number. It still shocks me that this is the case, but it is. If we take gas at $4/gal (it is much higher than that in my area), that means the ICE car costs us $4/20 = $0.20/mile just for fuel. Now consider the cost of oil changes, inspections, various services, etc. $150 for a 5k mile service is not unreasonable, esp when taken as an average over the life of the car ($150/5k = $0.03/mile). So now we are up to $0.23/mile just for fuel and service, and we haven't even factored in the cost of depreciating the car over its lifetime!

So you can see, with the above assumptions, we are driving the FFE for the cost of putting gas and oil in an ICE car, making the cost of the FFE itself a wash (compared to buying gas). Now I realize there are a lot of assumptions that may not hold in every case, but they do point out the FFE is an amazing value - which is why I purchased mine. And if indeed it lasts even 100k miles without requiring major service (or if I sell it at 50K miles for say, $10k), it will have been, in my case, a "free" car!

TexaCali said:

And if indeed it lasts even 100k miles without requiring major service (or if I sell it at 50K miles for say, $10k), it will have been, in my case, a "free" car!

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More or less the same conclusion I came to when I decided to purchase my FFE and year and half ago, and I didn't even get as good a price as in your illustration.

Based on cost alone (all "green" considerations aside) the FFE (and the Leaf and similar cars) are awesome deals for around-town vehicles (which is what most driving is). And they're more fun and pleasurable to drive as well! When more people realize all this (i.e, just how much money they are throwing away to gasoline and maintenance) I think there will be an upswell of demand for EVs.

And, I predict, EVs will prove to be much more reliable than gasoline cars -- this, too, should begin to get the general public's attention. I also think electric cars will "age" well. Free of large internal temperature fluctuations (from a hot ICE and exhaust), grime and contamination (from leaks of various fluids), and vibration (from the ICE and transmission), I think EVs will have a tendency to stay closer to their "new state" longer than an ICE vehicle.

WattsUp said:

And, I predict, EVs will prove to be much more reliable than gasoline cars -- this, too, should begin to get the generic public's attention. I also think electric cars will "age" well. Free of large internal temperature fluctuations (from a hot ICE and exhaust), grime and contamination (from leaks of various fluids), and vibration (from the ICE and transmission), I think EVs will have a tendency to stay closer to their "new state" longer than an ICE vehicle.

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That's certainly what I'm anticipating. As you point out, the EV is a much more simple system with far fewer failure points and much less stress (due to heat, vibration, high pressure fluids, etc). I only used 100K = junkyard in my example as it was an extreme case, and the car still works out to be free!

Not sure but I think you may have done a somewhat unfair comparison: The FFE is one of a small number of BEVs that have an ICE counterpart. Thus the comparison could just be: ICE Focus or BEV Focus (the numbers will be a bit closer as the ICE Focus gets more like 30 mpg on average).
Granted, though, your average FFE shopper isn't looking for a Focus and then deciding on a powertrain: If they didn't get the FFE it would have been something else--not the ICE Focus.

I agree, and it baffles me that more people haven't switched over to electric. My wife just replaced her Acura ($330/month lease + $200 gas) for a Volt ($225 lease plus $40 electric, and the California $1500 rebate will cover the electric over three years). It's just a no-brainer.

The problem will occur when the electric and PHEV cars become more popular...less tax and manufacturer's incentives. But in the meanwhile, a deal you can't logically refuse.

{Post deleted by User}

If we ask for a "quiet" exemption, they will respond by making us install noisemakers.

Here in Washington State, it's more than a little weird.

The anti-Tesla direct sales legislation got bizarrely close to also functionally outlawing the sale of BEVs (FFE, Leaf) by requiring that the manufacturer train and equip every one of their dealers in the State to sell and maintain BEVs.

Washington has adopted most of the California emissions standards, like Oregon did, but didn't adopt the Zero-Emission Vehicle (ZEV) standard, so there are several California-and-Oregon cars (Spark EV, Fit EV) that aren't sold here.

New ZEVs are exempt from Sales Tax in Washington. That's a big deal... we have a very high Sales Tax (around 10.1%) because we have no State income tax. Come to think of it, new jetliners are also exempt from Sales Tax in Washington.

And yet.... there's a special annual $100 ZEV fee when you license a battery-electric car here, because ZEVs don't buy gas so they don't pay fuel taxes. In Washington, the State gasoline tax is 37 cents a gallon.

I think that's fair. Gas taxes pay for roads and repair, and a BEV causes roughly as much wear and tear as a similarly-sized ICE car. I pay about $75 a year in gas taxes for 10,000 miles in a 50 MPG Insight.

From a pure economic standpoint, nothing beats my used hybrid. I drive a Honda Insight, 2000 model year, with a manual transmission. My daily commute is 36 miles roundtrip, 90% freeway, and I average 50 MPG.

I paid $4,800 for the car. I've put $40 in oil and filters into it, and buy about 200 gallons of fuel at $4.00/gal per year.

Let's assume a 10% depreciation rate, and my monthly cost is $110. I'm excluding license fees and insurance because I expect them to be similar.

It actually costs me more on days I ride my bike and take the train.

Yet I'm itching to lease an FFE and plunk down my own money to get a 240V charger installed at work, and worry about how far I can go.

jmueller065 said:

Not sure but I think you may have done a somewhat unfair comparison: The FFE is one of a small number of BEVs that have an ICE counterpart. Thus the comparison could just be: ICE Focus or BEV Focus (the numbers will be a bit closer as the ICE Focus gets more like 30 mpg on average).
Granted, though, your average FFE shopper isn't looking for a Focus and then deciding on a powertrain: If they didn't get the FFE it would have been something else--not the ICE Focus.

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I don't know why people use some SUV as a comparison. Yeah my SUV that cost $50K didn't even get 20 MPG, but I knew that when I bought it. The gas sucked. But it had more space and usage. I could go camping in the mountains, on random road trips, pack a bunch of junk in the back, my kids had a ton of space and then some. I could fit other people in the car when needed.

The FFE is pretty much useless when it comes to doing anything that requires space. So your kid is on the soccer team, he has a couple of friends, well you can't drive them. Or your kid is on some football team, has a lot of equipment, and has friends, well you become the parent who never wants to car pool. Also known as the parent who wants everybody else to drive their kid around. I'm not sure why some people like to pretend this isn't the case. It's like they need to believe the car has space or something.

I would think a better comparison would be with some of the hybrids that are relatively cheap. Some of those cars get around 50MPG. So if you spent about 8 bucks on gas, you could get around 100 Miles. I have never come close to getting 100 miles on the FFE. My avg range is not even 70 miles. And I go 35-40 MPH all the time.

And I can't charge at home, so I pay monthly fees for any of these charging stations. And they all cost around $0.75 - $1 per hour to charge. So it cost me around 4 bucks to get 65-70 miles. Plus the monthly fee for that station. So really it's more like i spent 5 bucks for 70 miles. A hybrid spending $30 for 300+ miles or my FFE spending $5 for 70 miles? Not exactly a good deal.

pjam3 said:

And I can't charge at home, so I pay monthly fees for any of these charging stations. And they all cost around $0.75 - $1 per hour to charge. So it cost me around 4 bucks to get 65-70 miles. Plus the monthly fee for that station. So really it's more like i spent 5 bucks for 70 miles. A hybrid spending $30 for 300+ miles or my FFE spending $5 for 70 miles? Not exactly a good deal.

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Why did you buy the car?

Why did you buy the car?[/quote]

I like electric cars. I like the FFE. It's an experiment. And I wanted first hand knowledge on what you can and can't do with the car. If Ford doesn't improve the car in a couple years, I'll move on and buy another Electric or Hydrogen Fuel Cell or what not.

I've played around with self-driving cars. I have a robot that pretty much cleans my house these days. I am going to buy a drone. I've tried to change the MyFord system and make it more Google esque. I have a portable solar charger that can sort of charge the car for a few minutes, but that's a work in progress. And I thought the Tesla Model S was a great car, but I had no desire to spend $100K on a car. Far more interesting things I can buy with that money.

that's why.

pjam3 said:

The FFE is pretty much useless when it comes to doing anything that requires space. So your kid is on the soccer team, he has a couple of friends, well you can't drive them. Or your kid is on some football team, has a lot of equipment, and has friends, well you become the parent who never wants to car pool. Also known as the parent who wants everybody else to drive their kid around. I'm not sure why some people like to pretend this isn't the case. It's like they need to believe the car has space or something.

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You just have to be creative: I take my son along to his baseball games all the time. In some cases he brings a friend (not much more room in ANY Focus for more then 4 people: Myself, Wife, son, friend).
Yeah I know: Baseball doesn't have the "space requirements" like football, or hockey. Well it is less but not much less: My son's baseball backpack takes up quite a bit of room--can't fit it in the "trunk" (besides I have that full with a wagon and two folding chairs anyway).

Soccer team: bad example: Even less space for "stuff" is required. I could easily fit myself, wife, son and two of his friends in our FFE if we were taking them to a soccer game (yes he has played in the past so I know the requirements for hauling stuff to kids soccer games).

Last summer we carpooled all the time with another family to summer camp: I usually picked up. Mostly 3 kids and me--sometimes 4 all with their school/summer backpacks (and me with work stuff to bring home: "briefcase", lunchbox, etc.). No issues.

Now if they were teenagers: He can drive himself in his own car! LOL

jmueller065 said:

pjam3 said:

The FFE is pretty much useless when it comes to doing anything that requires space. So your kid is on the soccer team, he has a couple of friends, well you can't drive them. Or your kid is on some football team, has a lot of equipment, and has friends, well you become the parent who never wants to car pool. Also known as the parent who wants everybody else to drive their kid around. I'm not sure why some people like to pretend this isn't the case. It's like they need to believe the car has space or something.

Click to expand...

You just have to be creative: I take my son along to his baseball games all the time. In some cases he brings a friend (not much more room in ANY Focus for more then 4 people: Myself, Wife, son, friend).
Yeah I know: Baseball doesn't have the "space requirements" like football, or hockey. Well it is less but not much less: My son's baseball backpack takes up quite a bit of room--can't fit it in the "trunk" (besides I have that full with a wagon and two folding chairs anyway).

Soccer team: bad example: Even less space for "stuff" is required. I could easily fit myself, wife, son and two of his friends in our FFE if we were taking them to a soccer game (yes he has played in the past so I know the requirements for hauling stuff to kids soccer games).

Last summer we carpooled all the time with another family to summer camp: I usually picked up. Mostly 3 kids and me--sometimes 4 all with their school/summer backpacks (and me with work stuff to bring home: "briefcase", lunchbox, etc.). No issues.

Now if they were teenagers: He can drive himself in his own car! LOL

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Depends on the age of your kids. My kids need to sit in the back and are supposed to sit in the back in a booster seat till they are around 8-9 years old. Can you get away with putting one of them in the front? Yeah. But you can also get away with texting on your phone at a stop light, but that's still illegal and people have been ticketed for it. Plus it's not exactly safe to put a 6 year old in the front seat of a car.

In my case, I have two kids under 8 years old, so they sit in the back. Which leaves one seat in the front. If it's another kid the same age as my kids, they are pretty much out of luck. Yeah when my kids reach 9-10 years old, it will be a different story, but right now, anybody with kids in a state with "booster seat and backseat" laws, really can't just make a kid sit in the front seat of their car. And even if you did, why would you?

I am also all in on the FFE at this point. I dumped my X5 SUV and now if I need to do anything, it's all on the FFE. So the experiment continues. I took my kids from San Diego up to Newport Beach a few weeks back. It's about a 65 mile trip, give or take, and there really are no non freeways you can take for over half the trip because of the military base. So you take 5 or you drive out to Temecula and wind your way through Orange County and travel over 120 miles to do the same trip. Makes no sense, but that was what the MyFord GPS wanted me to take.

I wanted to see if I could make it up there as I used to go up there quite often. It takes longer in the FFE because I can't drive as fast on the freeway and being I had like 3 miles left when I rolled into the Fashion Island Mall(they have a few charging stations), going any faster would have been a bad thing. But I made it. So I was happy. I got to charge, my kids got to eat and walk around, and we enjoyed Newport Beach.

The drive home didn't go as well. It wasn't a disaster, but I had to make a pit stop in Encinitas. I had like 2 miles left. My son wasn't all that happy. "Why are we charging again?" was his comment. And being it took 4 hours to charge up in Newport beach, it took about 90 minutes to drive there, I wasn't looking forward to waiting around that long to charge. So we walked around Encinitas, went to Whole Foods, and came back after like an hour. We made it home with plenty range because I don't need to take the freeways from that point.

So the car had about 18 miles of range left. We didn't use the car for a few days because we just walked around where I lived all weekend and my one son came down with a cold so we didn't do much anyway. Monday morning we go out to the car and it's dead. No car alarm, doors won't unlock. I was like wtf is this. I never have anything plugged in, I make sure it's Parked and on P, lights aren't left on, etc. Again I can't charge at home, but I've never had any issues where it just dies without use. I travel now and again for work and I've come back after 3-4 days and my car was fine. Not sure what happened this time around. Burning about 20 percent in 2 days just sitting there is odd.

So there was no power and it was a pain. So I walked my one son to school, and called Ford Roadside assistance. I figure it's a 7 month old car with about 2000 miles on it, it shouldn't just die for no reason. Honestly, regardless of car, Ford Roadside assistance is probably a reason I'll never buy a Ford again. What a nightmare.

I called them at 9am. I have my younger son with me and am on hold. Finally somebody picks up and they say somebody will come out. I get a text saying the ETA is around 1030am. My son gets out of school at 1230, so that was ok. 1030am turned into 11am. No tow truck. No message. No phone call. Around 1115 there was an automated message asking if my tow truck had arrived. you press 2 for No and wait. But they hung up.

1130 the Tow truck company calls and tells me they are running behind and will be late. I told them I need to pick my son up and won't be around at 1230. They told me to leave a key under the door, but hearing horror stories of tow truck drivers not knowing it's an electric, and being I live in a building that's locked down, not like they can just come and go anyway.

They never show up, I walk to pick up my son from school. At this point I start thinking of alternative ways to figure out the issue because Ford Roadside assistance was pretty much useless. Later in the day, around 230pm, the tow truck driver calls me and says He's caught up. I hang up. The tow truck company calls me and asks me if I called for a tow. Yeah I called at 9am, it was 230pm, if I were stuck on the side of the road somewhere, I would have been screwed.

So at this point the car hasn't been used all week because it's dead. When I have time I'll try and see if my portable generator can charge it enough to just get it to a charging station. Beyond that, I will see. Being the lights weren't left on, no devices were plugged in, and there should have been about 20 percent left, not really happy that it just died.

pjam3 said:

Depends on the age of your kids. My kids need to sit in the back and are supposed to sit in the back in a booster seat till they are around 8-9 years old. Can you get away with putting one of them in the front? Yeah. But you can also get away with texting on your phone at a stop light, but that's still illegal and people have been ticketed for it. Plus it's not exactly safe to put a 6 year old in the front seat of a car.

In my case, I have two kids under 8 years old, so they sit in the back. Which leaves one seat in the front. If it's another kid the same age as my kids, they are pretty much out of luck. Yeah when my kids reach 9-10 years old, it will be a different story, but right now, anybody with kids in a state with "booster seat and backseat" laws, really can't just make a kid sit in the front seat of their car. And even if you did, why would you?

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Your major complaint here is about the passenger area which also applies to the ICE Focus and just about every compact car out there--not to mention the Volt which can't even hold that much. The Leaf is slightly larger (taller) so it may have a skosh more room in the back but when boosters are involved you're going to have a problem with any car short of a large one or SUV (Taurus, Malibu, Explorer, etc.).
Typically small cars like the Focus (in general) aren't marketed towards families (when is the last time you saw a Focus commercial showing a family of four going to the beach? No they are in an Explorer or a Taurus). They are more for kids coming out of college (Focus and Fiesta) and your more expensive commuter cars (Focus Electric or Focus Titanium trim level). So here you seem to be complaining about something that really isn't even in the market for the car..?
So yes, in that respect, no the FFE doesn't apply, and neither does the ICE Focus, and neither does the Leaf, and neither does the Chevy Cobalt, etc.
You want to haul a team around: get a minivan or a van.

pjam3 said:

WattsUp said:

Why did you buy the car?

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I like electric cars. ... that's why.

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Okay. But you sure don't seem to like the FFE very much. You seem to take every opportunity to jump into to any thread on any topic and insert your personal gripes about inaccurate range estimates you've experienced, lack of charging stations in your area, difficulty getting the car to do things that it clearly isn't intended to do, etc. -- and an otherwise positive/useful thread begins to transform in one with a negative/bummer/rant orientation. Plus, we have heard all of your gripes and stories before (in other unrelated threads that underwent the same transformation).

WattsUp said:

pjam3 said:

WattsUp said:

Why did you buy the car?

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I like electric cars. ... that's why.

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Okay. But you sure don't seem to like the FFE very much. You seem to take every opportunity to jump into to any thread on any topic and insert your personal gripes about inaccurate range estimates you've experienced, lack of charging stations in your area, difficulty getting the car to do things that it clearly isn't intended to do, etc. -- and an otherwise positive/useful thread begins to transform in one with a negative/bummer/rant orientation. Plus, we have heard all of your gripes and stories before (in other unrelated threads that underwent the same transformation).

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Sorry to ruin your kool aid with the truth.

pjam3 said:

Sorry to ruin your kool aid with the truth.

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It may be your truth, but it is not the truth of almost everyone else here. Nor is it the truth of your California brethren. Guessing the first one is a glitch, but the rest of them are plausible in CA as I just did 111 miles on a charge here in cold and dreary Connecticut.

pjam3 said:

Sorry to ruin your kool aid with the truth.

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This isn't about the "truth" or not, this is about the appropriateness of your postings. The vast majority of your posting on Thu May 22, 2014 9:52 am had nothing to do with this discussion.

To put it plainly: Please stop using every topic in this forum as your chance to rant about some gripe or bad experience that is only remotely related to the discussion at hand. Feel free to start your own topics about particular issues, but please don't pollute other topics.

This topic started on a pleasant note with a discussion about how affordable the FFE can be. Now it has degraded into being all about your gripes. You did that. It's selfish. Please think twice before doing it again.