howardc64
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:38 pm
Location: Seattle WA

range question for current FFE owners

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:23 pm

We are really interested in a 2nd EV. Currently own a Tesla Model S so am fairly familiar with range degradation issues (speed, winter)

Test drove an FFE this past weekend and love the car. But it seems about 20 mile short on range compared to what we need. We were hoping for 80 summer and 60 winter with say 10 mile left when returning home. The FFE wouldn't be used for a fixed commute pattern, thus we want a bit more freedom for some daily errands. The test drive started at 71mi fully charged, driving it fairly gently yielded about a 1 to 1 correspondence to the predicted range.

Looks like its about 60 summer and I guess maybe 40 winter? (Winter months definitely take a bite into the range in our Tesla although it has plenty for the day) if I keep the 10mi buffer?

BTW, I'm in the Pacific Northwest so winter's cold and rain does take a range bite of the Tesla along with some hills. We average around 350Whr/mi on the Tesla during the winter and probably closer to 300 in the summer. I was surprised to see FFE isn't too much lower.

Anyhow, looking for feedback if my range projections are about correct on the FFE.
Last edited by howardc64 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
2013 Tesla Model S85
2011 Toyota Prius Model II
2007 Toyota Prius (teenage son's car)

michael
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:55 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:40 pm

The FFE is a really good car, but I don't think it will deliver the 90 mile range you're looking for without extraordinary care. That's about 210 Wh/mile. My own usage is 90% freeway, typically 60-70 mph and I use about 270 Wh/mile (70 mile range). The air conditioner is pretty efficient but the heater uses a lot of power.

I've logged nearly 14,000 miles in 7 months, and it's served me very well. But for your purposes I'd have to suggest a Volt as the second car...it's not quite as nice as the FFE and is a little more expensive, but its range is unlimited. On your 40 mile days, you can go pure electric, but for the unexpected long range days you are totally covered. I'd also have proposed a RAV4 EV, but they are available only here in California.

Others here may disagree, but that's my thinking....
2013 FFE Returned after 3 years with 52,000 miles and battery down to 15.2 kWh
2014 Volt returned with 43,000 miles
2014 Volt 26,000 miles
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327
Awaiting a Bolt

howardc64
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:38 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:07 pm

Thanks for the reply and info. Very helpful.

Currently have a Prius as a second car. EV is about 2X more efficient energy cost wise compared to the Prius so won't be saving all that much. Just really like EV's nice drive + no gas station visits :)

I think we are going to wait a couple of more years to see if any manufacturer can get closer to 100mi summer range which probably works out to be about 30kWhr battery.
2013 Tesla Model S85
2011 Toyota Prius Model II
2007 Toyota Prius (teenage son's car)

v_traveller
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:22 am
Location: So Cal

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:29 pm

howardc64 -

Looks like the Mercedes B-Class ED is coming your way next year.... specs in the article below indicate that it should fit your needs.

http://insideevs.com/breaking-mercedes- ... ced-41450/
vin
2015 B-Class Electric Drive - Cirrus White
2014 Volt - Summit White
2014 RAV4 EV - Blizzard Pearl White
2013 FFE - White Platinum Metallic (2/2013 -12/2015)
http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/

EVA
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:10 pm
Location: Chicago Area

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:08 pm

Howard, think you got the unfortunate answer - the range is just outside what you appear to need - at least the way you've described it.

Did you consider charging at the other end of the trip. You're used to 4 mph on 110V, not getting you much of anything in your Tesla (why bother, right ?). In the Focus Electric, 8 hours of even 110V charging could be the difference that adds the cushion you need (36 miles is a huge percentage extra on the Focus). Level 2 would get you more than enough range.

I have a Focus Electric and just took delivery of an Model S 85kW on Saturday. I love both cars for very different reasons. Without question, all electric is the best way to go. Every time I look at the Focus Electric or drive it, I smile. That car is so zen like, it is small, efficient, simple, and quiet. It makes me drive like a limo driver and I love driving it. The Tesla, I still can't get over getting to 101MPH in the blink of an eye, and internet radio has me addicted to the sound system.

Don't think you would be happy with a Volt at all. I'd recommend the Fusion Energi, but the pure electric range is not huge on that car either. You've still got the whole hauling around a gas engine when I might need it deal. And you still have to maintain that engine.

Too bad there isn't a way for you to rent one for a week - or lease one with a way out during the first month. Test drives won't really tell you about range and battery use.

By the way, the two cars look fantastic next to each other. You really should get the Focus Electric.
2014 Platinum White FFE (Turning in mid Dec. 2016 25,000 miles)
2013 Ingot Silver FFE
2012 Titanium ICE Focus
2014 Tesla Model S 85

Richmond72
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:52 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:57 am

What about the BMW i3. I think it has more range.

Fluke
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 3:48 am
Location: Kansas

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:52 am

I'll be the contrary view relative to the Volt. I much prefer driving our Volt vs. our FFE, but my wife feels the same so I drive the FFE 95% of the time. The software in the Volt is rock solid while the FFE software is by far the worst of any car I've driven (with the exception of other Ford cars with Sync). I've been surprised by how much this one aspect of the car degrades the whole experience for me. As soon as I've got enough saved up, the FFE will be replaced with a Model S.
2012 White Platinum Ford Focus Electric
Yes, SYNC is that bad

jmueller065
Posts: 2386
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:36 am
Location: Southeastern MI
Contact: Website

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:11 am

Fluke wrote:Yes, SYNC is that bad
LMAO!

I'm actually pretty satisfied with how well MFT works (your real problem is with MFT, not Sync per se). But then I think that each MFT has its own individual behavior. For all three of the cars we've had with MFT each have/had its own idiosyncrasies that you'd have to get used to/work around (some worse than others).
2018 Cajun Red Chevy Bolt
2016 Magnetic C-Max Energi (lease returned)
2014 Sunset Escape
2014 Thor Axis (V-10)
2013 Focus Electric (lease returned Jan 2016 for the C-Max above)
https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/

howardc64
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:38 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:34 am

Thanks for all the responses.

@EVA, charging on the other end won't be convenient if we get the FFE, will be used for random local errands so unknown charging option on the other end and certainly inconvenient if we hunt for an outlet. Model S actually works fine for this role but it such a wide car and easy to pick up dings+scapes, we find ourselves hunting for safe parking spots everywhere we go. And if we go to places where people are not so careful with their cars (like Costco parking lot haha), would be nice to have a narrower and less expensive EV :)

Since I have a Prius now as a second car, I prefer not to switch to PHEV like Volt or Energi if possible and just all the way to full EV. But looks like my winter range requirement puts me about 2-3 years away. For nearer term, I'll look into Mercedes B-Class ED (80mi range in summer may not be enough) and BMW i3. For longer term, I'll wait for the Tesla Gen 3 or any other manufacturer that can get to 30+kWhr for reasonable price.

I have maintained my own cars (previously European cars at >= 100k miles so lots of work) and really like the low wear/stress nature of EVs. If you look at an ICE car, engine's high heat + cooling needs, high spark + fuel pressure delivery, and multi speed transmission are all high stress wear points. Jay Leno mentioned his ~100 year old Baker EV never breaks down. Brakes also never wears and likely last a life time due to regen. Anyhow, so I'm anticipating a lot less maintenance which seems to be true on the Tesla at the moment (except that Tesla operates like a software company so constant mods+upgrades of both SW+HW so the car goes back for retrofits). Modern EVs do have all that electronics which might cause worry if they show failures beyond warranty period. Tesla's LCD instrument cluster is $6k... hope it never wears out! Cars around 2000 had lots of solder joint problems due to lead-free transition. Hope things are worked out now but laptop longevity don't exactly inspire confidence. Tesla's main infotainment panel is nVidia Tegra 2.
2013 Tesla Model S85
2011 Toyota Prius Model II
2007 Toyota Prius (teenage son's car)

michael
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:55 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: range question for current FFE owners

Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:09 am

BMW I3 looks like very good car but it is nutty expensive. I got the following quote:


2014 i3 BMW with Range Extender
MSRP: $51,175.00

Residual @ 15,000 Miles Per Year: 39% ($19,958.25)

Rebate for Lease: $4,875.00 (Used only for Lease, this rebate gives the awareness that the residual is low and compensates for that)

*** Based on 700+ Fico Score

Total Drive OFF: $3000.00 (Includes all Tax, Title, DMV, Acquisition Fee, and First Month Payment)
Monthly Payment: $838.79 + Tax
Payment WITH TAX: $914.28 (9% La County Tax Used)

** For every $1,000 more down or less it will change payment $30 roughly.



For that kind of money you could lease three FFE's and have plenty left over. Last quote I got on an FFE was 290/month including tax, zero driveaway. They are a bargain and a half, IMO.


As regards the Ford software, I have an FFE and a Volt, and frankly I find the Ford easier to use. The Volt has a hodge-podge of buttons and touchscreen, and it's tough to navigate. The Iphone app isn't any better than Ford's. But either one is waaay better than nothing.
2013 FFE Returned after 3 years with 52,000 miles and battery down to 15.2 kWh
2014 Volt returned with 43,000 miles
2014 Volt 26,000 miles
1967 Corvette 427
1962 Corvette 327
Awaiting a Bolt

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