0.05 Gallons/Mile

My apologies if this has been discussed previously, but the 'common word' search issue prevented me from finding it if it has.

My old Audi didn't get 0.05 Gallons/Mile, it got 20 MPG. Why on earth does the FFE not calculate Miles/kWh rather than watts/mile? Miles/kWh is so much easier understand and to explain to non-EV enthusiasts.

Anyone know a reasonable explanation that just isn't obvious to me?

twscrap said:

My apologies if this has been discussed previously, but the 'common word' search issue prevented me from finding it if it has.

My old Audi didn't get 0.05 Gallons/Mile, it got 20 MPG. Why on earth does the FFE not calculate Miles/kWh rather than watts/mile? Miles/kWh is so much easier understand and to explain to non-EV enthusiasts.

Anyone know a reasonable explanation that just isn't obvious to me?

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Small clarification... the FFE reports watt-hours per mile, not watts per mile. The "Wh" in Wh/mi stands for watt-hours (same as the "Wh" in kWh).

In my FFE, I usually drive around getting about 250 Wh/mi.

Which is just another way of saying 0.250 kWh per 1 mile (divide Wh portion by 1000 to get kWh).

Which is just another way of saying 1 kWh per 4 miles (divide both parts by 0.250). (Btw, the FFE battery holds about 19.5 kWh of usable energy... multiply by 4 and you get 78 miles, unsurprisingly.)

Which is just another way of saying 4 miles per kWh. So, just tell your friends that your FFE gets about 4 miles per kWh.

Heh, it's a religious thing in the EV community. Some like it one way, some like it the other.

Europeans use gallons per mile (well, in metric obviously, liters per 100km). Doing it this way makes it more apparent how truly wasteful the gas guzzlers are, and makes it easier to see how much you'll save going to a more efficient car. Google for "MPG illusion". Going from a 12 MPG SUV to a 15 MPG SUV actually saves MORE gas and money than going from a 30 MPG car to a 45 MPG car!

In the market it's still a toss up -- some cars show miles/KWh, some show Wh/mile. Personally I prefer the Wh/mile metric, and by now I have a good sense of what's "good". A small econobox like the Mitsubishi will get something like 200-250 Wh/mile, a bigger Model S will be more like 300-350. I drive with a lead foot and crank the HVAC, and don't have to worry about range due to short commute, so I routinely have horrible efficiency numbers, like 400 Wh/mile. In my Volt I once hit 520 Wh/mile AVERAGE over a month.

I noticed that the MyFordMobile app gives me performance rankings alongside other FFE drivers in my region. Lets see if I can achieve the worst efficiency

Troy, didn't you bail on your Launch Edition BMW i3, like me? Your sig still says May 5th delivery.

ChrisC said:

Troy, didn't you bail on your Launch Edition BMW i3, like me? Your sig still says May 5th delivery.

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Nope - we may be ending up a two EV household. See my latest blogpost: http://activeeinsect.blogspot.com/2014/03/i-dont-know-why-you-say-goodbye.html

WattsUp said:

Small clarification... the FFE reports watt-hours per mile, not watts per mile. The "Wh" in Wh/mi stands for watt-hours (same as the "Wh" in kWh).

In my FFE, I usually drive around getting about 250 Wh/mi.

Which is just another way of saying 0.250 kWh per 1 mile (divide Wh portion by 1000 to get kWh).

Which is just another way of saying 1 kWh per 4 miles (divide both parts by 0.250). (Btw, the FFE battery holds about 19.5 kWh of usable energy... multiply by 4 and you get 78 miles, unsurprisingly.)

Which is just another way of saying 4 miles per kWh. So, just tell your friends that your FFE gets about 4 miles per kWh.

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I understand the math - but when explaining to others miles/kWh is just so much easier for them to understand.

Having recently purchased my 2014 FFE on the 1st of March. I'm still getting alot of questions.

I talk to people in terms they can understand.

I tell them that I get about 88 miles for the cost of 1 gallon of gas.

The math here is:
15 cents per KWH (my utility does not offer night time charging at a lower rate)
4 miles per KWH
$3.30 avg cost of a gallon of gas
22 KWH = 1 gallon of gas in cost
(22 * 4) = 88

kelver said:

WattsUp said:

Small clarification... the FFE reports watt-hours per mile, not watts per mile.

Click to expand...

I understand the math - but when explaining to others miles/kWh is just so much easier for them to understand.

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Okay. Just wasn't clear when you were talking about "watts per mile", which we can't actually do any sensible math with.

Just a typo, or a brain fart - wasn't really thinking while I was typing...

kelver said:

Having recently purchased my 2014 FFE on the 1st of March. I'm still getting alot of questions.

I talk to people in terms they can understand.

I tell them that I get about 88 miles for the cost of 1 gallon of gas.

The math here is:
15 cents per KWH (my utility does not offer night time charging at a lower rate)
4 miles per KWH
$3.30 avg cost of a gallon of gas
22 KWH = 1 gallon of gas in cost
(22 * 4) = 88

Click to expand...

This isn't entirely true though. Yeah at home, but for many of us who live in condos, apartments, etc (which is like 50 percent of the US population) you have to find charging stations. And in places like California, many of those charging stations are no longer free.

There are 3 main companies who provide them in San Diego. NrG EvGo, Blink, Chargepoint. They all charge some kind of fee for membership and 99 percent of them charge around $1 per hour for charging.

My trial for EvGo ran out and I had to set up a membership. THey are the closest charging station to me and I use them all the time as they are near a Whole Foods, restaurants, playground for kids, shops, etc. EvGo has a few options, but the best for me as the $5.95 per month and $1 per hour to charge.

Last time I charged my car, I was there for over 3 hours and it cost me 4 bucks. I get about 65-70 miles on average in my car. So for 4 bucks on top of the $5.95 per month, that's pretty much what I get for driving 65 miles. Is that better than some SUVs and pickup trucks that get 20 miles per gallon or less? For sure, but for cars like a Prius hybrid, you're not exactly getting a better deal.

pjam3 said:

Last time I charged my car, I was there for over 3 hours and it cost me 4 bucks. I get about 65-70 miles on average in my car. So for 4 bucks on top of the $5.95 per month, that's pretty much what I get for driving 65 miles. Is that better than some SUVs and pickup trucks that get 20 miles per gallon or less? For sure, but for cars like a Prius hybrid, you're not exactly getting a better deal.

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pjam3 provides further examples for why buying an FFE without the ability to charge at home is an imprudent decision.

kelver said:

Having recently purchased my 2014 FFE on the 1st of March. I'm still getting alot of questions.

I talk to people in terms they can understand.

I tell them that I get about 88 miles for the cost of 1 gallon of gas.

The math here is:
15 cents per KWH (my utility does not offer night time charging at a lower rate)
4 miles per KWH
$3.30 avg cost of a gallon of gas
22 KWH = 1 gallon of gas in cost
(22 * 4) = 88

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Here's how I work the math.
Gas is 3.299 per gallon today in my neighborhood.
Electricity from my electric coop is 8.9¢ per kWh (second tier, winter rate)
3.299/0.089=37kWh, the amount of electricity I could buy for the cost of 1 gallon of gas.
37kWh of electricity at 80% charging efficiency = 29.6kWh stored in the FFE's battery (spread over two charges because of the 23kWh capacity limit)
My FFE has averaged 242Wh/mile in February and March.
29.6/.242 = 122 miles

So, I can tell people that for me, where I live, on winter electric rates, at the current price of gas, at an 80% charging efficiency rate, and at my current rate of consumption, for the cost of one gallon of gasoline, I can go 122 miles, or in other words, the cost equivalent of 122 miles per gallon.

YMMV depending on electric rates, gas prices, charging efficiency, actual amount of preconditioning (which I assumed as part of charging efficiency with a 240V EVSE), and driving style.

Gigi said:

pjam3 said:

Last time I charged my car, I was there for over 3 hours and it cost me 4 bucks. I get about 65-70 miles on average in my car. So for 4 bucks on top of the $5.95 per month, that's pretty much what I get for driving 65 miles. Is that better than some SUVs and pickup trucks that get 20 miles per gallon or less? For sure, but for cars like a Prius hybrid, you're not exactly getting a better deal.

Click to expand...

pjam3 provides further examples for why buying an FFE without the ability to charge at home is an imprudent decision.

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Yeah but for where I live this line of thinking means 60+ percent of people would never be able to buy the FFE.
The FFE is already struggling to sell, discounting 60 percent of some cities population is a bad idea.

pjam3 said:

discounting 60 percent of some cities population is a bad idea.

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No, discounting 60 percent of the population of some cities is a good idea if it means discouraging people from making a mistake in their choice of a vehicle and becoming miserable with that choice.

The FFE isn't for everybody. It works very well for people who can charge at home overnight on their own dime and whose daily drive is within the FFE's range. I don't know enough about demographics to know what percentage of the total population that is, but it does seem to be a significant proportion of the people where I live as witnessed by the number of Leafs sold here - Nissan's third largest market for the Leaf.

I am truly sorry that this vehicle doesn't work for you, pjam3. You continue to offer ample evidence for why a condo owner or apartment dweller who cannot charge on their own EVSE overnight should NOT buy an FFE. You provide a valuable warning for anyone who is under the mistaken impression that charging at public charging stations is easy, convenient, and economical.

Gigi said:

pjam3 said:

discounting 60 percent of some cities population is a bad idea.

Click to expand...

No, discounting 60 percent of the population of some cities is a good idea if it means discouraging people from making a mistake in their choice of a vehicle and becoming miserable with that choice.

The FFE isn't for everybody. It works very well for people who can charge at home overnight on their own dime and whose daily drive is within the FFE's range. I don't know enough about demographics to know what percentage of the total population that is, but it does seem to be a significant proportion of the people where I live as witnessed by the number of Leafs sold here - Nissan's third largest market for the Leaf.

I am truly sorry that this vehicle doesn't work for you, pjam3. You continue to offer ample evidence for why a condo owner or apartment dweller who cannot charge on their own EVSE overnight should NOT buy an FFE. You provide a valuable warning for anyone who is under the mistaken impression that charging at public charging stations is easy, convenient, and economical.

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The problem with this thinking is it's short sighted. Right now electric companies don't care because Electric cars are pretty much less than 1 percent of the market. But what happens when more people start buying? Companies aren't going to just sit by and let people charge with no changes.

Like I said, I've been following the Electric car market for a long time. I was a fan of Tesla and the Roadster years ago. I knew a few people who bought them. Charging stations were free at one point and Blink wanted to put in like 14,000 or something charging stations Southern California. They went bankrupt. Somebody else bought them out and 99 percent of there stations cost money. They also cut the power on some of them. Others like EvGo have a huge plan like Tesla to build stations everywhere. But it's 5.99 per month and $1 per hour or more for L3 super chargers that the FFE doesn't have.

All I know is Tesla gets it, Ford doesn't. When I speak to them about my issues and concerns, they have plans and phone calls with me about their future, their strategy, what I can and can't do. They also have a plan to build huge battery factories. Tesla and ELon Musk are changing the way the car business does business and the Fords and dealers of the world still want to keep the middleman attitude.

But I've seen how its gone from mostly free charging stations to 99 percent of them charging now. i see the big power and electric companies doing the same things. And they've been talking about it already. The short sighted opinion is it doesn't matter. The reality is it will. So what happens when it costs a lot more than it does now to charge at home? Will the market be the same? I don't know, but that's the difference between some people who buy electrics and others. For some it is about the environment, for others it's about saving a few bucks. Time will tell.

Gigi said:

pjam3 provides further examples for why buying an FFE without the ability to charge at home is an imprudent decision.

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Or at least why one should not purchase an EV without plenty of free charging stations near. In my area, there is free unlimited charging at several parking structures that offer free parking on nights and weekends. Even the local mall has free charging.

But if I didn't have home charging, it would still be too much of a hassle. I got to give pjam3 credit for braving all of the charging issues and go electric.

unplugged said:

In my area, there is free unlimited charging at several parking structures that offer free parking on nights and weekends. Even the local mall has free charging.

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I suppose that if one lived across the street or just down the block from such a parking garage or mall, that would be convenient. I can think of a few in-town or high density business/residential locations around Atlanta where that might work well. Personally, I prefer living further out in the suburbs where the population is less dense and where I can have the convenience of charging right in my own garage. My situation works wonderfully and I have nothing to complain about.

pjam3 said:

But what happens when more people start buying?

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I think that is a good question. And I also think that this incorporates your situation. More apartments and condos are going to have to start putting in the infrastructure to support charging stations. Whether this is by popular demand or government regulation is up to the building owners, but change must come. As EVs become more prevalent (and required in states like California), some accommodation is going to have to be made for EV owners who don't have a traditional garage. There is no excuse for leaving out a critical segment of our society just because government can't figure out how to demand charging stations for renters and condo owners.

unplugged said:

pjam3 said:

But what happens when more people start buying?

Click to expand...

I think that is a good question. And I also think that this incorporates your situation. More apartments and condos are going to have to start putting in the infrastructure to support charging stations. Whether this is by popular demand or government regulation is up to the building owners, but change must come. As EVs become more prevalent (and required in states like California), some accommodation is going to have to be made for EV owners who don't have a traditional garage. There is no excuse for leaving out a critical segment of our society just because government can't figure out how to demand charging stations for renters and condo owners.

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People have short sighted opinions or the "it's not like that where I'm at." 99 percent of the charging stations where I live used to be free. But a lot of people started buying plug-in hybrids and electric cars. I can't go to some of the stations many times because they are packed with cars charging. Other stations broke down and took months to fix. So these companies are companies who want to make money. Will they? Who knows, but they have free stations to start and as more people buy electrics, they charge. People just live in a bubble to think a company putting these stations in aren't in it to make money.

The same will happen with the electric companies. The power & electric companies have had conversations around electric cars and charging. It will be a long time before they charge, but if the EV market or plug-in hybrid market picks up to where over 50 percent of the cars bought fall into those categories, they aren't going to just sit around and do nothing.

I don't get it, but I do. Most people don't realize all these companies are in it to make money. Thinking that your local charging stations are always going to be free is absurd. And look at it another way. It's always about money. Look at the way some states are trying to ban Tesla. You don't go to some middleman useless dealership, you buy direct from Tesla. NJ & Texas don't like that philosophy, didn't get paid off enough, and banned selling Tesla's in their states. I imaging going forward Tesla will pay the right people off,but that's how these business work. It's about them continuing to make money.

My isuzu trooper doesnt get more then 15 miles to the gallon. I need to switch to a hybrid or pure electric car if you want to learn seo

pjam3 said:

Who knows, but they have free stations to start and as more people buy electrics, they charge. People just live in a bubble to think a company putting these stations in aren't in it to make money.

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I don't recall anyone saying that they expected charging stations to remain free.

And the electricity isn't coming free from the utilities, somebody is paying for it, likely the entity that installed the charging station, even if it's a free one.

Note that Nissan introduced a new "free charge" deal when you get a Leaf now: Charge for 30 minutes free at a quick charge, or an hour at L2 stations:
http://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-now-gets-free-public-charging-on-all-the-major-networks/